Breeders, looking for conformation/discussion

[wuvmybetta]

Man,I never even thought about it like that I was thinking this chick had a real awkward experience crossing plakat and HM or something

People

 

[Texaswoman]

Thanks guys. I wouldn't and still don't think she was or is trying to undermine me. I will always think the best until I know differently, and they are well known and I respect their opinion, I just don't agree with this one. I thought maybe that was me being novice, or blonde Let's just hope it was an overagressive assumption on their part and not just competition and politics. Yuk

 

[Texaswoman]

Forgot to mention, just because I'm happy and you guys think it's great too, there are around 100 fry swimming babies muching on vinegar eels now. I think it is so funny how each male can be such a different daddy. This male was very good and made a strong nest, but after spawning, he didn't care the female was around. He acted almost like she wasn't there. He would only stay right underneath the nest and watch it, completly still, like the nest was going to explode any second or something. He would get the fries when they fell, sometimes, and there was also 20 - 30 on the floor he wouldn't get.

My other daddy, the red lavendar bf dt male was a wonderful dad too, but super paranoid about his babies. Always frantic, picking everybody up as fast as he could, trying not to let one hit the ground. And when they started swimming, he would swim around the tank picking up as many as he could fit and take them back to the nest, where they would just swim off again.

Other males say, hmmm, snack

Amazing fishies huh. Personalities and characteristics you will never forget.

 

[Joepmaster]

So, back in September I bred my first batch of bettas. The mother was an award-winning light orange ST, HM. The father was a Plakat. From my research before the spawn, I knew to expect 100% long-finned fish in the F1. I also expected those fish to be Delta, or SD, or HM. This was based on some of the research I had done. Part of this research was reviewing Jim Sonnier's spawn logs and viewing the results of his spawns .

For example, look at the results of his fish (in terms of tail type) from a plakat father and HM mother: Here

My male from the F1 appears to be a delta, as I expected.


So then last night, I was reading the foruma over at another betta site, and an (assumidly) knowledgable person was asked what one would get if a long finned fish was crossed with a plakat. The person responded, "veiltails".

I've also read that when you cross a delta, SD, or HM with a plakat, you get a percentage of fry that are veil tails, wih the others being Delta, maybe SD or HM.

I'm perplexed. Any input? (obviously I believe my own research about this other forum's one person, but I hope you'll share your experiences with me!)

I heard that statement (HM x plakat = veiltail) before. And if I'm correct the context in which this was said was in order to improve a HM line using a plakat. If I'm correct and the person who said this is the one I'm referring to, then this person also recommends that when you do a cross like this you should use a HM plakat (or at least a plakat with a HM background). I think in this context the statement maybe does makes some sense afterall. The original statements to my opinion just wanted to indicate that there is a big chance in ruining the finnage of your HM line this way.

I think in this discussion it is important to realise a couple of things:
1. The difference between a traditional plakat or a HM plakat.
2. Background of the fish.
3. Compatibility of lines.
etc.

When we are talking of improving finnage, a HM cross with a traditional/figher type plakat without a HM background will definitely be a step backward for the finnage in the offspring (maybe not for agressiveness/vitality). Off course there will be different types of finnage in this spawn varying from fish with a poor spread (veiltail-like) and fish with a better spread. But still it will be less then you original HM line.
When a HM plakat, or a plakat derived from a HM line is crossed with a HM the outcome will be entirely different. And I personally think there is a good chance of getting some HMs back. However there still will be the problem with the anal finnage. The longfinned offspring from such a cross most of the time will have long pointed anal fins which unbalances the fish.
But you're allways dependent of the compatibility, how does a pair genetically match. I have even seen veiltail-like offspring from a HM x HM crosses, it just depends on the lines which are used and how the compatibility between those lines is. Some lines simply don't match......

And off course there are exceptions to all of this........but I just wanted to share my thoughts about this.

Many greetings from the Netherlands,

Joep

 

[cation]

When we are talking of improving finnage, a HM cross with a traditional/figher type plakat without a HM background will definitely be a step backward for the finnage in the offspring (maybe not for agressiveness/vitality). Off course there will be different types of finnage in this spawn varying from fish with a poor spread (veiltail-like) and fish with a better spread. But still it will be less then you original HM line.

Okay, now I'm even more confused. As I understand it, Veiltail is a mutation, not just a case of "poor spread". Help?



Interesting everybody is thinking along the lines of what the plakat will do to the longfin, as opposed to the other way around. When you get right down to it, I did my cross for the plakats in the F2. The longfin female was simply a quality fish that didn't interfer with whatever might happen to the F2 plakats colorwise. I also thought I might get more orangies, which I like too. But all we've been talking about is what plakat does to half moon. What does HM do to a plakat line (not F1, obviously none would be plakats then )? Any thoughts?

 

[Texaswoman]

I don't know what the HM would do to a plakat line, but I don't think it would bring anything that the standards would accept. It could get you more like the hm plakat standard I think.

I am starting a hm line with a plakat/hm cross. I'm not going to be ruining my hm line in my mind, I'm going to be improving in the color I'm wanting to acheive in a halfmoon stock which was non-existant before. I don't expect hms in the F1, but a fish with the coloring I'm seeking and working on the finnage next generation. I don't know how you could get a veiltail type fish from a hm type fish, unless there is vt in the line. A vieltail I'm referring to as the branching, plus the tail rays curve and bend down. I don't think that the veiltail is actually a mutation. None go out from the base as if arraying around like a moon or sun. A delta tail would just need to exhibit 2 branches minimum, and rays that form a diamond or array coming from the base out. Now, if I'm wrong on this, someone correct me.

 

[cation]

. A vieltail I'm referring to as the branching, plus the tail rays curve and bend down. I don't think that the veiltail is actually a mutation. None go out from the base as if arraying around like a moon or sun. A delta tail would just need to exhibit 2 branches minimum, and rays that form a diamond or array coming from the base out. Now, if I'm wrong on this, someone correct me.

As I understand it, when you breed Veil to Veil, you get Veils. This speaks to it being a mutation that stuck. Veils are not a natural form of Betta s - in fact, everything with long fins is a mutation! We liked them and bred them.

When they occured in the wild, a long fin mutation would likely cause the fish having it to be at a major disadvantage when facing off against wt. Same thing with a light colored betta and predation. when we see these mutations in our tanks, we often like them and we breed them to establish the mutated gene.

Remember, a "mutation" isn't always a bad thing. I'm a big ol' mutant - I have blue eyes. Dark eyes are wild-type for humans - blue eyes were a mutation that was "allowed" by evolution because it did not affect our survival or reproductive abilities.

Remember - "Mutations are considered the driving force of evolution, where less favorable (or deleterious) mutations are removed from the gene pool by natural selection, while more favorable (or beneficial) ones tend to accumulate. Neutral mutations do not affect the organism's chances of survival in its natural environment and can accumulate over time, which might result in what is known as punctuated equilibrium; the modern interpretation of classic evolutionary theory. It should be noted that, contrary to science fiction, the overwhelming majority of mutations have no real effect." (from Wikipedia)

 

[cation]

Well, she sticks to her guns. She re-enforced her views on the subject, so I left some links to some of Jim's spawns.

A picture's worth a thousand words, you know.

Oh, TW, as far as I know, the veiltail is not only ddefined by its distinctive tail shape, but as I understand it by the lack of symmetry in the tail. I have never read in any of my IBC handbooks that a certain amount of branching is part of the defining characteristic that makes a delta a delta - as I understand it, defining a delta is as simple as observing its tail shape, nothing more.

 

[Texaswoman]

There is a fish on AB that I emailed the breeder about because I thought she was nice. Read what she is out of. Her father is a traditional style plakat, and her mom is a hm longfin female. This is the 3rd generation and has had no previous plakat crosses to her knowledge. She sent me some pics of the parents too, and the cross is the same type of fishes crossed as mine. Do these look like veiltails, or just nice deltas? Any who, just another point on the subject. Thanks Cation for the updates. I'll try to find where I had read that, otherwise it could have just been something I made up in my head

Here is the offspring:
http/www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auc...tasd&1106963301

I'm going to post pics the breeder sent me of her parents:

 

[cation]

The link won't work, at least for me. Sorry.

 

[Joepmaster]

Hi Cation,

You're right that mutation itself is not a bad thing, actually it is the driving force of evolution. We are all the result of this .

When breeding bettas you're actually only working with mutants because probably none of these fish will stand a chance in the wild. We actually try to force evolution here in our tanks.
Remember all it all begun with the domestication of the wildforms for the fights. From this eventually the veiltails evolved and further to the HMs and CTs. And this evolution within our hobby is still going on looking at all the different new copper derived colors and still evolving tailtypes (like rosetails, fullmoons,etc.).

As I understand it, when you breed Veil to Veil, you get Veils. This speaks to it being a mutation that stuck. Veils are not a natural form of Betta s - in fact, everything with long fins is a mutation! We liked them and bred them.

But keep in mind here that HMs also eventually evolved from these simple veiltails by a repetitive selection of spread and shape! A short overview:
- 1960: First DTs in India
- 1967: Warren Young: Libby betta (actually the veiltail like fish)
- Around 1960-1970: Schmidt-Focke, bred the first deltatail betta. A betta with a symmetrical triangular tail shape.
- 1980: Development of the superdeltas (Peter Göttner and Paris Jones, etc.) Spread around this time max. 160 degrees.
- 1987: By heavy selection Guy Delaval (france) develops fish with a spread of 180 degrees.
- 1993: Rajiv Massilamoni, Laurent Chenot and Jeff Wilson perfect the HM to the type we know these days!

If you want to read more about this, click here to read my article: An historic overview of tail type development

What I wanted to point out with my former post was that it is impossible to compare a cross between fish when their background is different. Some can cross a plakat x HM and get offspring wiht finnage while others will get fish which have a poor shaped tail.
Many plakats which don't have the HM spread have a poor raysplitting and crossing these to a HM fish will most probably lead to younsters with a better tail than the plakat but with a much less tail then the HM. It is just what you would like to achieve with a cross like this.

Here is the offspring:
http/www.aquabid.com/cgi-bin/auction/auc...tasd&1106963301

Nice female. I would call this a roundtail fish. The shape of the tail is round without clear sharp edges like a delta, superdelta or HM should have. From what I can see on this picture I think the crossing with the plakat also reduced the amount of ray-splitting in comparison with the picture of the mother. The mother I think also isn't a true HM female but, she also has to rounded edges. Maybe she is from a HM line, but not HM herself according to the standard.

Just my opinion, hope you don't mind............

Greetz,

Joep

 

[Texaswoman]

You are right about the female, she isn't as nice as her mother and not as nice ray splitting. Do you think this would improve with a next generation cross? I would also like to ask, is this the type of cross you would want to do to shorten up your bettas finnage if the length is too long? I would think preferably think the hm plakat cross is what you want, but the tradional plakat would do this too, but you lose ray splitting then. Okay, making more sense now.

Sorry Cation, you said it right about the veiltails being mutations. I was just in the mind set thinking bettas started as long fins, even though I know they didn't. Blonde moment ) The link works for me, so I don't know. She is listed on Aquabid still at the moment under Incredible Black marble female from Bettas Galore.

 

[cation]

Yep, TW, your link still comes up as an error for me, and Joep, your link comes up as the microsoft website.

Oh well. I'll look your fish up on Aquabid and see them there!

Joep, I'd like to read your article. I'm interested in what it says, and I hope it can clarify, because otherwise what you said doesn't ring right with me. What you are saying sure sounds a little Lamarkian - you know, the giraffe stretching his neck on purpose. If is was an gradual spread from veil to Delta to HM that happened over the course of 45 years, then that seems to be what you're implying. Now, we can "force" evolution through selective breeding, obviously, but I'm now wondering if any tail type should be considered genetic except short vs. long.

What I would REALLY like somebody to do is come up with some evidence - like a published research paper, or something like that. So far I have heard a lot that doesn't seem to fit together at all, and I have my own evidence that really makes me question some of the info passed around the two boards. I am thouroughly confused.

I emailed Jim Sonnier. Since it's looking at his spawns that has confused me so much, I figured I'd just go ahead and ask him.

Here's a copy of the email I sent him:

"Hi there Mr Sonnier -

I hope all is well with you. My name is Jennifer ********, and I have long been an admirer of your fish. In fact, I was sorely disappointed when I did not win a coveted melano plakat you had bred that was auctioned at the PNWBS in August. I have been enjoying following your work on the Giant gene as well - it's so interesting that it appears to be incompletely dominant.

I hope you can settle an issue that I am having. I had always believed, partially based on reviewing the results of your spawns, that when you cross a plakat with a superdelta or a Half Moon, you would have 100% longfin fish in the F1, and none should theoretically be veiltails, they should all be delta, SD (or HM, but not likely in the F1). Am I way off base with this thought? I have recently been told that I am incorrect, and that this spawn will result in veils. After directing the person to look at the results of some of your spawns, they said, well, a show plakat might throw deltas when crossed with a SD/HM, but a traditional plakat will
throw veils when crossed in the same manner. This doesn't make any sense to me - I understand that we've worked heavily with the show fish, but I can't understand why being a traditional plakat (particularly a traditional round tail plakat, not the spade tail) would make a difference genetically.

Here is a link to a forum I visit often where we are discussing this issue, if you would like to read more about our confusion *grin* :

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=73806


If you don't have time to answer this, I understand. I know you're a busy man.
Thanks in advance for your time"

 

[Joepmaster]

You are right about the female, she isn't as nice as her mother and not as nice ray splitting. Do you think this would improve with a next generation cross? I would also like to ask, is this the type of cross you would want to do to shorten up your bettas finnage if the length is too long? I would think preferably think the hm plakat cross is what you want, but the tradional plakat would do this too, but you lose ray splitting then.

I think there is a chance the finnage will improve but off course this is also dependent which cross is used. Also here it comes to selection. When you want to improve the spread of the caudal finnage, try to look for a good raysplitting and straight rays and edges. You can try to get an F2 generation throwing probably both plakat and longfinned fish will pop-up. Another possibility could be a backcross to the mother, but then probably no plakats will pop-up (unless she is carrying plakat too).
About using plakats in long-finned lines to shorten the finnage the opinions are differed I think. Mostly you will get long-finned fish with an unbalanced anal fin. This will be really long and pointed (typical plakat). But others seem to cross plakats within their lines without seeying this, I think here it is again because of different lines, etc.
Again this is my point of view....maybe other people think different about this.

Joep, your link comes up as the microsoft website.

Sorry about that, I restored the link .

The article can be found by clicking here: An historic overview of tail type development

This article was written after doing a lot of reading and after a personal conversation with Rajiv Massilamoni, who told me the story about how they further developed and perfectioned the Halfmoon to the now worldwide known standard.

Further you can find it on my website: www.bettaterritory.nl by clicking on the All about betta splendens section. You will find more articles I wrote there if you are interested .

Many greetings from the Netherlands,

Joep

 

[cation]

Thanks Joep, I'm looking forward to reading it!