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Another controversial subject

Discussion in 'Tropical Discussion' started by AKfish, Jul 15, 2019.

  1. AKfish

    AKfish Fish Fanatic

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    Hybridization, probably have some blood boiling already. Not exactly the point of the post. I'm only curious because some of my personal favorite fish are hybrid. Valentina synodontis (still argued if it's a hybrid or not) and flowerhorn cichlids are some of my favorite fish. Those seem to be excepted if not tolerated by most. The obvious guppies and various other small fish including shrimp are pretty regularly hybrized. But if the subject of say Cory cats is brought up. Seems to be a very harsh backlash of condemnation. The arguments don't seem to have much behind them. Tend to be more of a moral issue. Lots of "that doesn't happen in nature" type of talk. Now I'm not promoting hydrides or actively trying to create them. I'm just curious why for some fish there seems to be a more laid back attitude about it and some specie's it seems to be a more aggressive disagreeing. I do know that where I live hydrides are happening right now. And it's 100% nature. Polar bear have been moving inland and breeding with grizzlies. The call them groler bears or pizzlies. Spelling could be off lol. But they're are reports here in Alaska of people shooting second and third generation groler bear. Due to global warming and the lack of sea ice. Polar bears are finding a way to survive. If people are truly now finding second and third generations of this animal. It is becoming a new specie's right before our eyes. Politics aside as far as global warming goes. I grew up in Alaska living here for 25 years. Then moved away for about 10+ years. Returning home to an unquestionably warmer Alaska. Trees I never seen growing up are how becoming common. Sooooo many new bugs seem to be showing up. This summer breaking records for heat hitting 90+ where I live. Totally out of the normal for my area. Anyway I have a feeling over the next 20+ years we will see a lot of things change. A lot of things we wouldn't have ever experienced due to climate changes and animals reacting. This is probably why it sparked my attention. I guess seeing so many "it's not nature" type responses to old posts where people asked about hybrized animals. I just think nature may be showing us that not only is it natural. It's an absolutely necessary function for the continued genetics. As in the choice could be extinction or hydridize.
     
  2. PheonixKingZ

    PheonixKingZ Fish Herder
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    Wow! That is interesting!

    I have heard of bear hybrids and snake hybrids before.

    And IMO, it is natural. :)
     
  3. Byron

    Byron Member

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    Nature is behind the objection to hybridization of species, but not in the way you surmise. [BTW, I do not want to get bogged down with polar bears, but the polar and grizzly species are very closely related, they are in the same genus, and the grizzly has several morphological forms that some recognize sub-species so there is likely more behind this. But that is not the topic here.]

    First, livebearers are a distinct issue and really not even in the subject of hybridization of species. So far as I know (recent scientific study may not have come to my attention) the only hybridization here (meaning cross-species) is Xiphophorus maculatus (platy) and X. hellerii (swordtail). Selective breeding with Poecilia sphenops (molly) is not hybridization. But we can leave livebearers and turn to the much more crucial hybridization among other species.

    You mention Corydoras hybridization being condemned, and it most assuredly is, and for a very good reason. Species are in decline--we are now in the midst of the largest mass extinction in the planet's history, and it may in fact be the end by the end of this century. But that too is beside the point. If animals on their own initiative cross-breed, fine. It is not for humans who think they know better to force it. The stakes are too high.

    The issue is protecting the gene pool of a species. As soon as aquarists achieve some cross-breeding of Corydoras species the gene pool of the offspring are changed from those of the parent species. Releasing these back into the hobby is not to be encouraged. I have some 12 species of Corydoras in my cory tank, with 50 fish. I know some species have crossed with others because a couple species only have one fish and this has clearly been one of the parents of fry. But I know this is occurring naturally, though the "abnormal" environment I have placed these fish into is a major factor, and under no circumstance will I release those fry into the hobby. They will remain with me until they die. Allowing these into the hobby is irresponsible, and that is what the ichthyologists and biologists are so against.

    The species of Corydoras, some 160 described to date, rarely if ever see each other in nature; it is only in the artificial environment of an aquarium that species may come into contact. And it is only the species within the respective lineage that will cross-breed, so far as any one knows. The 160+ species classified as Corydoras actually represent nine distinct lineages. Phylogenetic analysis by several ichthyologists has proven this and it is accepted. Once the polyphyletic genus Corydoras is sorted out, we will have nine distinct monophyletic genera, only one of which will carry the name Corydoras. In the event any of these wild populations should disappear, it would be rewarding if hobby offspring could restock the habitat. But if this is not the true species, it could cause far more trouble than benefit. Humans should realize by now what detriment almost inevitably follows our experimenting with nature.
     
    #3 Byron, Jul 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  4. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    Another controversial subject
    LOL. he's a trouble maker this one.
    only joking :)

    I heard about polar bears crossing with grizzlies. The lack of sea ice has forced polar bears onto the land where they are breeding with the local grizzly bears.

    Head south a bit and there are wolf coyote hybrids running in packs now. They look like small wolves but have a temperament more like a coyote.

    Swordtails and platies were hybridised 40 years ago to get more colour, as were guppies and Endler's livebearers, and different species of molly were crossed for more colours.

    Modern day Siamese fighting fish are a hybrid between Betta splendens and Betta imbellis, again for colours. This also explains why some fighting fish are peaceful and others aren't. B. splendens is outwardly aggressive to other fish, whereas B. imbellis is peaceful. Some Siamese fighting fish are more peaceful because they take after their B. imbellis ancestors.

    A few different cichlids have been hybridised to create different fishes. Many of these fish have been made by people in China and are designed to look weird and freaky. Unfortunately many of these fish struggle through life due to their weird body shapes and deformities that the Chinese seem to like.

    A lot of wild rainbowfish from Cape York in Queensland, Australia, have been found to be hybrids from multiple species. This is caused by the cyclones that flood areas with water and fish get washed out of their original habitat and end up in a creek or river with a different species. They then breed with the other species and create slightly different colour forms of the main species in that river. Photos of rainbowfishes collected at certain locations 20-30 years ago, show fish with different colours and markings when compared to fish found in the same locations today. Fish from the southern parts of Australia and from lakes are less likely to be hybrids due to lack of other species accidentally ending up in the water body.

    Personally, I don't like hybrids of any type. I have seen people destroy beautiful species of birds, plants and fish by hybridising them with other species. When this happens you normally lose the original forms and can't get them back.

    Albino birds and fish are another thing I can't stand. People have colour vision and having a tank of white fish is boring. Albino rainbowfish have lost all colour and you can't even tell what species they originated from. Rainbowfish come in a range of colours and the male's colour changes when breeding, so why people want white rainbows is beyond me.

    Colour mutations are another thing that irks me. If people get different coloured birds or fish that is fine because organisms naturally throw the odd colour variant. However, they should not be bred with every true original coloured organism out there. This has happened to Gouldian finches, with 99.9% of captive Gouldians now carrying at least one colour mutation gene. For people like myself who want pure colours in things and like the original form, this makes life really difficult. We buy "pure strains" and they throw all sorts of crap, most of which I don't like.

    My last gripe is with physical mutations. Double tails, short deformed bodies, buggy eyes, mutated scales and anything else people make fish and animals into. Fancy goldfish and balloon fishes struggle through life. Their bodies are shorter than normal and this causes their internal organs to get squished up. They have more problems digesting food and usually die earlier than original shaped fish.

    There was a report many years ago about a company trying to make chickens with 3 legs so we had more legs to eat.

    Dogs have been inbred to create all sorts of bizarre features, most of which hinder the animal.
    Cats have also been inbred to encourage mutations like no tail or really short legs. This prevents the animals from acting normally.
    Horses have been inbred for years to get physical attributes that some people like. Fortunately most countries are now forcing show animals to be useable practical animals too. And they must be able to do the normal things those animals do without needing surgery to do it.

    Quite frankly, some people **** me when it comes to animals. If a human was forced to have children with their relatives, they would freak out and be grossed out by it, but animal breeders regularly cross parents with offspring and back again just to get a particular feature. I gotta stop now or I'm gonna say something bad about humans.
     
    #4 Colin_T, Jul 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  5. AKfish

    AKfish Fish Fanatic

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    Hmm understood. And yes grizzlies and polar bear are supposed to get closely related. Also did know they were still figuring things out with cory's, didn't know there were 9 different species being called corydoras. So corydoras are dieing off? Not something I was aware of either. Are there any theories to why? Climate change?
     
  6. PheonixKingZ

    PheonixKingZ Fish Herder
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    I agree, human kind should not experiment with cross breeding. Hasn’t anyone seen Jarassic Park? :lol:
     
    #6 PheonixKingZ, Jul 15, 2019
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  7. Byron

    Byron Member

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    Just a taxonomic clarification, it is not nine species called Corydoras, it is nine distinct lineages [which will eventually be genera (multiple of genus)]. Within each lineage there are several species that all descended from the same last ancestor, which is what creates a monophyletic clade. The genus Brochis has/had three species, but it has been synonymised with Corydoras (Britto, 2003; Ferraris, 2007) because there are two (maybe three) other species now in Corydoras that also descended from the same last ancestor so the five/six species form a monophyletic clade which the three Brochis species alone do not since some of the sister species are not in this "genus" as it presently is understood.

    I didn't mean to suggest cory species are dying off, sorry if that was unclear. But at the rate we are destroying their habitat it may well come about.
     
  8. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    A lot of fish are being threatened with extinction all around the world. Most of it is from pollution (poisons, chemicals, agricultural runoff getting into the water), over fishing for food or aquarium sales, and climate change with rising temperatures and less rainfall. There's other things too including filling in swamp or marsh land to build houses and roads.

    In the south-west of Western Australia is a native fish that has been around for millions of years. It is the only fish in the world that can turn its head like a reptile, bird or animal. It's called the salamanderfish (Lepidogalaxias salamandroides). These fish are only found in a few small areas and bury themselves in summer when the water evaporates. A lot of the areas these fish are found in, are drainage ditches next to the roads.

    A couple of years ago the federal government initiated a road safety program and they went around the state widening roads. They did this in summer when the fish were aestivating (sleeping in a cacoon of mucous under the soil). All the fish that lived in these drainage ditches are now dead because of the roads built on top of them. The fish are endangered and the government didn't care.

    The part that annoys me the most about this is I am not allowed to collect these fish and try to breed them in captivity, and there are huge fines if I am caught with any. But the Australian government can fill in their habitat and put roads on them.
     
  9. AKfish

    AKfish Fish Fanatic

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    Love the passion Colin. And no trouble just conversation lol. Those are all great points. Yes what people are capable is unimaginable. Some of the worst experiments ever done on an animal were human on human experiments. So does that mean its potentially less accepted based on specie's? I know it isn't for you Colin lol. Just saying as in a broader scheme. Is it more general accepted in the hobby based on specific specie's.
     
  10. AKfish

    AKfish Fish Fanatic

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    Byron you had me at monophyletic clade lol. Your on an entire other level then me bro. I understand very little. Feel like I got the point, most of it lol.
     
  11. Naughts

    Naughts Fish Fanatic

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    Guppies were added to endlers habitats to control mosquitoes. Aquarists cross breed them to get desirable colours and shapes.
    But it may be there are no pure endlers anymore. It's OK to cross 2 species and get 3 , but not OK to wipe out a species.
     
  12. AKfish

    AKfish Fish Fanatic

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    That's deviating to hear. If anyone remembers the first matrix movie. I have always said since watching it they explain whet people do better then I had ever heard. We are a virus spreading across the earth destroying everything we touch. not a quote different words same message lol. But if I picture the being in space looking at the earth. As an observer it would look like a slowly dieing cell or something. As people spread across it bringing deviation. And truthfully it's not all people but technology. We used to live far more at one with nature. But as technology allowed us to change our surroundings and life expectancy increased. So did birth rates and so on. Truly technology has been our biggest achievement as well as our biggest downfall. Sorry definitely getting into another subject completely lol.
     
  13. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    I was actually watching an old lecture from David Suzuki earlier today, and it was about that. He made a couple of comments that made me LOL but everyone else in the audience didn't make a noise. He mentioned going into a store that had a sign out the front saying "No animals allowed". He told the guy at the counter if that sign was enforced properly, then nobody would come in, in reference to us being animals. The shop keeper and audience didn't get it.

    Many years ago a friend and I use to insult each other by calling each other silly names while playing Mario Carts. He would run me off the track so I would call him a bad driver. He would call me a pussy and it slowly escalated. Eventually one of us would call the other a human and that would be it. Them's fightin words. We considered that the worst insult you could get. :)

    One of the comments David Suzuki made at the end involved exponential growth and he described a test tube full of food, with 1 bacteria in it. The bacteria divides and doubles it's population every minute and at 60 minutes it is completely full with nothing left but bacteria. He said the human race has past the 59th minute.
     
  14. seangee

    seangee Member

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    Any computer programmers (err sorry giving away my age, of course I mean software engineers) will have coded a "game of life" simulation at some point. Pretty scary.
    Something they got wrong later in the series... The problem is not choice, the problem is people. I am stunned that things like IVF are even allowed. But then that would be the end of capitalism which requires continued growth. Too many rice bowls to be broken (or markets to crash) if anyone were to suggest entering a period of steady state, or preferably negative growth.
     
  15. AKfish

    AKfish Fish Fanatic

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    Too bad we couldn't act more like ants. I have a carpenter ant colony just starting out. My hope is to set them up where they can farm aphids. Ants tend to live in symbiosis with their environment. But are socially far more similar to people then I think most realise. Obviously not exactly many differences. But ants have been seen doing some really what I would consider high level thinking type activities. For an animal that in theory runs off mostly instinct and sent or pheramon cues. Farming another insect to the point of protecting them. "Milking" them for food. And picking them up and relocating them to better grazing areas. Truly incredible to me. Anyway definitely off topic now lol. But I do believe any topic where learning can be achieved is useful.
     

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