Who's Fault Is It?

[andywg]

it is different to buying a lightbulb or a car because we are dealing with a life not just a product. buying/selling any living thing is different to buying and selling other products. I don't think either of those comparisons stands up I'm afraid.

A shop is a shop is a shop.

Mistreatment of a fish can lead to harm for the fish. A car can kill far more people, and messing around with electrics is equally dangerous. I know that main dealers check your licence when you buy a car, but no one has ever checked I know what to do with changing a light bulb, nor have I ever had my electrical competency checked when purchasing wiring to extend the ring main.

Nobody has their hands up in arms that the evil Wickes or B&Q sold an idiot the means to kill himself trying to redo his electrics, but for some reason we think that the lfs should give us chapter and verse on how to keep fish, despite everyone having completely different views on how best to keep fish.

Edit--

if you buy any animal or go to a rescue centre to adopt one there will be all sorts of checks made and discussions had to ensure that you know how to care for it properly, in a lot of cases you will be refused a sale if you don't.

You will also be turned down even if you are actually perfectly capable of keeping the animal, but just don't quite tick all the correct boxes. I prefer to be able to research and judge for myelf if I am capable of caring for an animal.

 

[Birdie]

I have to agree with Andy. I suppose if the tang was the *only* marine fish in the entire shop, then I might have a little ( and only a little) more sympathy towards the customers, but really, I think the shop is entitled to take some things as read. Or are they expected to inform the customer that fishes live in water, and not cups of coffee or baths of coca cola too?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

it is different to buying a lightbulb or a car because we are dealing with a life not just a product. buying/selling any living thing is different to buying and selling other products. I don't think either of those comparisons stands up I'm afraid.

A shop is a shop is a shop.

Mistreatment of a fish can lead to harm for the fish. A car can kill far more people, and messing around with electrics is equally dangerous. I know that main dealers check your licence when you buy a car, but no one has ever checked I know what to do with changing a light bulb, nor have I ever had my electrical competency checked when purchasing wiring to extend the ring main.

Nobody has their hands up in arms that the evil Wickes or B&Q sold an idiot the means to kill himself trying to redo his electrics, but for some reason we think that the lfs should give us chapter and verse on how to keep fish, despite everyon having completely different views on how best to keep fish.

i don't agree with your first statement though, any outlet selling living things is different to an outlet selling non living things and we can't expect the exact same standards for all of them.

ah, but if an idiot kills himself with wiring or kills his missus who'se allowed him to mess with to when he doesn't know what he's doing that is still different in my view to someone killing a fish that has had no say about what tank they are put into.

responsibility for your own life is different to taking on the responsibility for someone/something else's life especially when they have no say in the process

as i said anyway i don't think the lfs should have to give you chapter and verse, there is obviously a responsibility with the person buying it, all i think is the lfs should go through a few basic questions when selling fish, particularly if it is something that has special requirements, grows large etc

anyway i'll probably loose this argument as you're much more articulate than i am and more practised at arguing! lol

you won't change my mind though, the shop has a degree of responsibility too IMO

although sometimes i do wish Wickes and B&Q wouldn't quite so readily sell Ian stuff to tinker with, it doesn't half shoot my nervous system when he's playing with the house

if you buy any animal or go to a rescue centre to adopt one there will be all sorts of checks made and discussions had to ensure that you know how to care for it properly, in a lot of cases you will be refused a sale if you don't.

You will also be turned down even if you are actually perfectly capable of keeping the animal, but just don't quite tick all the correct boxes. I prefer to be able to research and judge for myelf if I am capable of caring for an animal.

yup sometimes people do get turned down when they should be allowed to keep pets, however i'd rather a few deserving people had to fight to get a pet than 1 animal was given into the care of someone who can't/won't look after it.

i think what it comes down to is with any life in question i would always err on the side of caution, maybe this is sometimes unfair and does inconvenience people but IMHO any animal lover should not mind a small amount of inconvenience for the sake of potentially saving an animals life

 

[gilaesther]

It's one thing to buy a lightbulb and not get asked if you're sure you want that kind, and it's another thing to buy a fish - which, is not at all the same as other pets.

Cats, dogs, and other mammals all breathe the same type of air, and it's usually a matter of house, or apartment that decides the breed, also child compatability. With a fish, however, there is a big difference, they live in a different environment. While I do find the customers at some fault, I think this is more a matter of the lfs setup. The marine and freshwater tanks should be clearly labelled to avoid such problems as tank-water compatability - for the very reason that, often times fish buying is impulse buying, and most people buying the fish think that water is water until they are taught otherwise (be it by the lfs, or their own research - if on impulse, there probably hasn't been any research though).

In the lfs' by me, the staff generally ask if you have this, that, or the other thing so the fish they sell have a fighting chance at survival. How hard is it to point out that the fish you are looking at requires saltwater, and not freshwater?

 

[andywg]

ah, but if an idiot kills himself with wiring or kills his missus who'se allowed him to mess with to when he doesn't know what he's doing that is still different in my view to someone killing a fish that has had no say about what tank they are put into.

responsibility for your own life is different to taking on the responsibility for someone/something else's life especially when they have no say in the process

What about the next person who buys the property? Suppose the wiring takes a while to give out? Surely we are now in a similar position between the new owners and the fish; neither has a real say in what the person has done (unless the survey rips open the walls to see the wiring) and innocent lives are at stake.

Do you really believe someone will then blame the DIY store for the problems?

as i said anyway i don't think the lfs should have to give you chapter and verse, there is obviously a responsibility with the person buying it, all i think is the lfs should go through a few basic questions when selling fish, particularly if it is something that has special requirements, grows large etc

But how much is enough, as Birdie has stated, where do we draw the line on what they advise? If I buy a lionfish or a frogfish, I do not want some attendant saying "Do you have a SW tank?". What next, them checking I have a heater?

And suppose the shop doesn't realise exactly what fish it is, do we then blame them more, or should they then blame the wholesaler for not advising them?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

ah, but if an idiot kills himself with wiring or kills his missus who'se allowed him to mess with to when he doesn't know what he's doing that is still different in my view to someone killing a fish that has had no say about what tank they are put into.

responsibility for your own life is different to taking on the responsibility for someone/something else's life especially when they have no say in the process

What about the next person who buys the property? Suppose the wiring takes a while to give out? Surely we are now in a similar position between the new owners and the fish; neither has a real say in what the person has done (unless the survey rips open the walls to see the wiring) and innocent lives are at stake.

Do you really believe someone will then blame the DIY store for the problems?

well these new home buyer packs you are supposed to do when selling your house need to contain an electrical survey, also any electrical works carried out by someone unqualified must be signed off by an electrician. nowaday's you'll really struggle to sell your house if the wiring's DIY and you've not had it certified as safe. You rarely need to get into the wall to see problems with the wiring, normally just unscrewing the plug socket/light switch/fuse box will tell you what you need to know.

No they shouldn't blame the DIY store, however if you go to Wickes and look at the electrical aisle, there are leaflets about how to wire in sockets etc which you would hope the people with no knowledge of wiring would check, on these leaflets it clearly states that work must be certified by a qualified electrician so they have done they're part to absolve themselves of responsibility, they have given the correct information. If the lfs had a full care sheet on the front of the tank telling you everything including that it's a saltwater fish then they shouldn't need to ask, however if they don't (which sadly is the majority of lfs's) then they should ask.

as i said anyway i don't think the lfs should have to give you chapter and verse, there is obviously a responsibility with the person buying it, all i think is the lfs should go through a few basic questions when selling fish, particularly if it is something that has special requirements, grows large etc

But how much is enough, as Birdie has stated, where do we draw the line on what they advise? If I buy a lionfish or a frogfish, I do not want some attendant saying "Do you have a SW tank?". What next, them checking I have a heater?

And suppose the shop doesn't realise exactly what fish it is, do we then blame them more, or should they then blame the wholesaler for not advising them?

I do think birdie had a point with where do you draw the line, I would expect most relatively experienced fishkeepers would be able to spot the difference between a slatwater and a freshwater tank in the lfs. However if the customer is asking questions like what do you feed it then it should become obvious to the employee in the lfs that they haven't done they're research in which case i think its appropriate to go back to basics and check that they're set up is ok, even just asking what other inhabitants were in the tank should have told them that it's not a SW set up.

the lfs not knowing what the fish is is a completely different situation and not the one being discussed, i would expect a different response. obviously a good lfs run by experienced aquarists they should be able to ID most fish, obviously we are all human and make mistakes from time to time but if the customer has asked the lfs what it is and have been given mis information the responsibility is still shared. Everyone should know that no 1 person can know everything about every fish so you should do your own research in the first place. The lfs should try to be as knowledgeable as they can.

 

[andywg]

well these new home buyer packs you are supposed to do when selling your house need to contain an electrical survey,

But won't show anything hidden in the walls/below the boards.

also any electrical works carried out by someone unqualified must be signed off by an electrician. nowaday's you'll really struggle to sell your house if the wiring's DIY and you've not had it certified as safe. You rarely need to get into the wall to see problems with the wiring, normally just unscrewing the plug socket/light switch/fuse box will tell you what you need to know.

Only recent work has to be done as such. Older stuff doesn't. I bought my house long enough ago that I can claim any work was done prior to the new regs and as such I am ok.

And taking off the plug socket won't tell you if some idiot has wired in the shower using 5A wiring.

No they shouldn't blame the DIY store, however if you go to Wickes and look at the electrical aisle, there are leaflets about how to wire in sockets etc which you would hope the people with no knowledge of wiring would check, on these leaflets it clearly states that work must be certified by a qualified electrician so they have done they're part to absolve themselves of responsibility, they have given the correct information. If the lfs had a full care sheet on the front of the tank telling you everything including that it's a saltwater fish then they shouldn't need to ask, however if they don't (which sadly is the majority of lfs's) then they should ask.

Many electrical stockists don't have fact sheets, and many lfs do have sheets, or at least carry books telling you how to care for fish. So surely they then are absolved from blame as well. The point being argued here is that the lfs did not offer the advice in a pro-active manner, rather than having the information available in a reactive manner,

So by your points here, one can go one of two ways:

1) The lfs has the information available "on tap" just as wickes does and therefore isn't to blame;

2) Any electrical stockist without such information available, and pro-actively offered, can be blamed for the actions of someone purchasing their products.

I do think birdie had a point with where do you draw the line, I would expect most relatively experienced fishkeepers would be able to spot the difference between a slatwater and a freshwater tank in the lfs. However if the customer is asking questions like what do you feed it then it should become obvious to the employee in the lfs that they haven't done they're research in which case i think its appropriate to go back to basics and check that they're set up is ok, even just asking what other inhabitants were in the tank should have told them that it's not a SW set up.

Unless they keep angels and cardinals... Could be SW or FW then. And I always ask what my new fish are eating (such as eels and frogfish). Doesn't mean I don't know whether they are FW or SW.

Also, I fear in this case the customer wasn't asking any questions at all, hence the problem.

Everyone should know that no 1 person can know everything about every fish so you should do your own research in the first place. The lfs should try to be as knowledgeable as they can.

But at the same time they should avoid being overly questionning. If you face detailed questions you will be put off buying from there. If you face stupid questions you will not want to buy from the store. And being knowledgable doesn't mean you quiz everyone who wants to buy any fish.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

curse you with better electrical knowledge than me, at any rate that was an analogy and not the real issue in point.

my point would be that if they have the information clearly displayed near to where the product in question is being purchased (many lfs's will have a serapare dry good section containing books but IMO it's far enough away from the fish in question for you to use as justification for not having appropriate info on display) and/or they pro-actively question the customer regarding they're tank and knowledge then i would say they are absolved of responsibility. however a failure to do either of them leaves a portion of blame with the lfs.

I read the story, and was shocked that they (the customers) asked a lot of questions - like was it eating etc. So the shop obviously thought they new what the fish was!

this quote from earlier in the topic say's that the customer did ask lots of questions.

although i'll admit i mis-read that, i thought they were asking what the dietry requirements of the fish were not what the lfs was feeding it, slightly different and gives the impression of a different level of knowledge about the fish.

 

[cheesy feet]

I think we need to stop using Homebase, electrical sockets and other things to compare fish to I can't see how it can be 100 Percent the buyers falt.As Miss Wiggle said the marine, coldwater and freshwater sections should be labelled.But still most people should know the difference between a marine and freshwater fish [even my mum does who knows nothing about fish ] .I think that you two are discussing something that no body really knows what happend.The people buying the fish could be anyone.Not worth trying to blame them or defend them completely because as i said i don't think anyone knows what exactly happend.

 

[wendywc]

Bottom line: customer's fault. If it was healthy when it left the store and died in the customer's care, it's their fault.

 

[andywg]

I think that you two are discussing something that no body really knows what happend.The people buying the fish could be anyone.Not worth trying to blame them or defend them completely because as i said i don't think anyone knows what exactly happend.

At which point you have taken out this thread's entire raison d'etre... to discuss who has the responsibility in a situation such as this.

I am fairly confident I can speak for MW when I say that we are not so much discussing the indivdual case as the responsibilities of the lfs compared to the fishkeeper in general.

 

[Nevergone815]

I don't think the lfs shouldn't take any of the blame really. Its up to the customer to know something and not to impulse buy. Especially when dealing with living creatures. Also, CUSTOMERS LIE! Its jsut that plain and simple. Here's a true story that happened to me.

My girlfriend and I went out to look for a Txas cichlid. We saw that a Petsmart carried them, but they were all sold out. There was a couple there that wanted ot buy a needle gar. Well they wanted ot put it in a 10 gallon tnak with a feeder comet, a tiger barb, a sailfin pleco pleco (they pointed to one in the tanks and said one of those), and some other uncompatible fish. The guy said, the tank was WAY to small. They needed at least a 55 gallon for itself and they like to be in groups. They are hard, near impossible to convert to anyhting other than live fish. So everything in their tank wuld probably wind up dead. Nextly he said, since they like to be in groups the tanks should be around 75 gallons. So the coupel went off pissed wanting to see the manager complaining that he wouldn't sell them the fish. Tthe manager said, no your tnak isn't capable of properly houseing it. I jsut sat and listened to it as I was glad the eployee and management both refused to sell the fish... This store has my vote to go to again !

So off they went to another lfs. Well since they were out of Texas, we decided to go to Petco down the road to see if by chance they had some. Since they are so close, usually what one carries the other does as well... competition is great sometimes . Well the coupel was in there. Asking to buy a neede gar. Well magically their 10 gallon tank became a 55 gallon with 2 other needle gars and they were upgradeign the tank to a 75 in the next month. Luckly, the Petco didn't have any, otherwise I would've stepped i and said, listen, these people just came form petsmart, they don't have that tank.

It jsut is 1 example of many that I've see nwhere a customer lied out of their asses about what they had. So even if a customer seemed to know, everyone lies. It's just that simple. What's the next step, going ot the customers' houes to see if they really have that setup?

I would've thought myself, if they are willign to pay that much for a fish, the question about what are you feeding it, is common amongst even experienced hobbists to ask.

In the end, it jsut plain comes down to the responsibility of the consumer to be truthful. I know when I want a new fish I do osme research on here, or I would ask the guy at the lfs if it would go in my tank and if it will fit for life. I tel lthem every detail of my tank, because even one thing off, can just mess up the life of the fish.

If someone bought a dog, cat, bird, reptile or amphibean and mistreated it, we don't blame the shop it came from, we blame the custoemr that bought it without knowing about it. So hy should fish be different. If we make mistakes we need to stop pointing the finger and hone up to it.

Also, any person can tell the difference between a SW and FW fish. Even before I got involved in fishkeeping I knew and any 6 year old that has seen Finding Nemo can do the same. They are just too different in size, shape and color, and their tank setups in the lfs are too dfferent to confuse it. To me, that's the lamest thing I've ever heard. People who can't tell the difference shouldn't be keeping fish IMO.

 

[oddball_lover]

I think ultimately, in an IDEAL world it would be the customer's responsibilty.

However, we all know that there are many many fishkeepers who don't actually know the first thing about keeping fish and don't WANT to research. They just want a pretty tank with pretty fish.

If the LFS doesn't try and educate these people to a point, then far far too many fish will die as a result. And if that happens....well, fishkeeping as a hobby will end up under threat. PETA, Animal Aid, even the RSPCA will begin to point out that (*hypothetical statistic alert*) 80% of all fish sold from aquatics shops die within a week...it wouldn't be acceptable if they were puppies, etc. etc.

To be quite honest, I would hate the thought of thousands of fish needlessly dying, when all the shopkeep had to do was ask a couple of questions to prevent the sale.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Oh, come on. The LFS saying 'You know this needs SW, right?' is pretty much on-bar with 'You know this needs water, right?' It's a stupid question to ask. And I'm slightly puzzled as to why anyone that thick would want to spend £65 on a single fish...

 

[Nevergone815]

Oh, come on. The LFS saying 'You know this needs SW, right?' is pretty much on-bar with 'You know this needs water, right?' It's a stupid question to ask. And I'm slightly puzzled as to why anyone that thick would want to spend £65 on a single fish...

My thoughts exactly!