When Should I Apply A Substrate?

[mark4785]

I am going to conduct a fishless cycle with pure ammonia and was wondering if I should wait until after the fishless cycle before adding the substrate or place the substrate into the aquarium before I've begun the fishless cycle?
 
Any recommendations with regards to what brand of pure ammonia solution I should buy would be much appreciated as the ammonia bottle I have at present has probably gone beyond its expiry date.
 

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I can't help with the ammonia, but the substrate is up to you.  No issue regarding adding the substrate at the beginning or at the end.  Ultimately, the biggest concern would be the light.  You can't have light and ammonia, unless you want algae.  Substrate doesn't matter.

 

[mark4785]

I can't help with the ammonia, but the substrate is up to you.  No issue regarding adding the substrate at the beginning or at the end.  Ultimately, the biggest concern would be the light.  You can't have light and ammonia, unless you want algae.  Substrate doesn't matter.

 
My biggest concern relates to how ammonia interacts with sand. I know all sorts can get stuck under the top layer of sand only to decay and sink to the bottom depths. I guess I'm afraid something like this would happen with ammonia making substrate disturbance potentially deadly?

 

[mike455555]

substrate will benefit the cycle because the bacteria will grow on there as well (offers a larger surface area still) and as for the ammonia, i dont think it can expire? if it works on the test kits i think it will work fine in the tank =]

 

[ShinySideUp]

The ammonia is unlikely to be 'pure', it is usually a 9 or 10 per cent solution. If you sniff it and it makes you turn away quickly then it has not 'gone off'. So long as you remove all the water down to the substrate after you have fully cycled and refill with new water you will be fine. Shoudl there be any ammonia 'trapped' in the substrate which eventually gets released it will be disposed of by the filter bacteria. I wouldn't worry, the fact that you are prepared to do a fishless cycle in the first place means you already know more than many, many people when it comes to fish care.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

I can't help with the ammonia, but the substrate is up to you.  No issue regarding adding the substrate at the beginning or at the end.  Ultimately, the biggest concern would be the light.  You can't have light and ammonia, unless you want algae.  Substrate doesn't matter.

 
My biggest concern relates to how ammonia interacts with sand. I know all sorts can get stuck under the top layer of sand only to decay and sink to the bottom depths. I guess I'm afraid something like this would happen with ammonia making substrate disturbance potentially deadly?

 
 
Ammonia doesn't "interact" with sand.  The only thing that I can figure you are referring to is "anaerobic pockets" under the sand.  I'll be honest and tell you that unless you add a very thick (>2 inches) layer of sand, you've got very little to worry about.  If you go 1 inch, then there's no concern at all.

 

[mark4785]

The ammonia is unlikely to be 'pure', it is usually a 9 or 10 per cent solution. If you sniff it and it makes you turn away quickly then it has not 'gone off'. So long as you remove all the water down to the substrate after you have fully cycled and refill with new water you will be fine. Shoudl there be any ammonia 'trapped' in the substrate which eventually gets released it will be disposed of by the filter bacteria. I wouldn't worry, the fact that you are prepared to do a fishless cycle in the first place means you already know more than many, many people when it comes to fish care.

 
Thanks for the information.
 
I think after i've concluded the fishless cycle, I'll do several full water changes, disturbing the substrate as much as possible before each water change so as to get trapped nitrogens out. I remember way back when I introduced German Rams to an aquarium which had completed a fishless cycle just 1 day earlier and they would constantly 'flash' when they were near the substrate. If a fish needs to relieve itself from pain either because of parasite attachment or ammonia poisoning it wouldn't exclusively go to the substrate to flash which, for me, gave the game away that it was small amounts of toxins coming out the substrate.
 
With regards to the ammonia product I can confirm that it does still have a strong smell when you remove the lid so i'll be sure to use it for the fishless cycle

 

[mark4785]

 

I can't help with the ammonia, but the substrate is up to you.  No issue regarding adding the substrate at the beginning or at the end.  Ultimately, the biggest concern would be the light.  You can't have light and ammonia, unless you want algae.  Substrate doesn't matter.

 
My biggest concern relates to how ammonia interacts with sand. I know all sorts can get stuck under the top layer of sand only to decay and sink to the bottom depths. I guess I'm afraid something like this would happen with ammonia making substrate disturbance potentially deadly?

 
 
Ammonia doesn't "interact" with sand.  The only thing that I can figure you are referring to is "anaerobic pockets" under the sand.  I'll be honest and tell you that unless you add a very thick (>2 inches) layer of sand, you've got very little to worry about.  If you go 1 inch, then there's no concern at all.

 
Everything in the water, including the water, would interact with the substrate, surely?
 
I typically have a 1.5 inch deep sand layer, however, segments can get much deeper if I've burrowed an hole(s) when positioning and planting new plants. I will keep the substrate thin so that it is more difficult for food/plants/faeces to get buried.

 

[eaglesaquarium]

The ammonia is unlikely to be 'pure', it is usually a 9 or 10 per cent solution. If you sniff it and it makes you turn away quickly then it has not 'gone off'. So long as you remove all the water down to the substrate after you have fully cycled and refill with new water you will be fine. Shoudl there be any ammonia 'trapped' in the substrate which eventually gets released it will be disposed of by the filter bacteria. I wouldn't worry, the fact that you are prepared to do a fishless cycle in the first place means you already know more than many, many people when it comes to fish care.

 
Thanks for the information.
 
I think after i've concluded the fishless cycle, I'll do several full water changes, disturbing the substrate as much as possible before each water change so as to get trapped nitrogens out. I remember way back when I introduced German Rams to an aquarium which had completed a fishless cycle just 1 day earlier and they would constantly 'flash' when they were near the substrate. If a fish needs to relieve itself from pain either because of parasite attachment or ammonia poisoning it wouldn't exclusively go to the substrate to flash which, for me, gave the game away that it was small amounts of toxins coming out the substrate.
 
With regards to the ammonia product I can confirm that it does still have a strong smell when you remove the lid so i'll be sure to use it for the fishless cycle

 
I think you may be misreading the symptom.  They flashed on the substrate, because it was coarse enough to "scratch the itch".  I've seen bears scratching themselves on trees, but never blamed the tree for being the reason they are scratching on it.
 
Putting a sensitive fish like GBRs into an immature tank is never a good idea.  They are fish that do much better in mature (6+ months) tanks.  There's more to the fish keeping hobby that we currently understand.  And some fish, like GBRs, discus, etc. often die for unknown reasons in immature tanks.
 
 
 
 

Everything in the water, including the water, would interact with the substrate, surely?
 
I typically have a 1.5 inch deep sand layer, however, segments can get much deeper if I've burrowed an hole(s) when positioning and planting new plants. I will keep the substrate thin so that it is more difficult for food/plants/faeces to get buried.

 
Silica (sand) is highly unreactive.  For this reason it is used to make glass, specifically glassware used in chemistry labs.  It is its unreactive properties that make it so attractive for many uses.

 

[mark4785]

 

The ammonia is unlikely to be 'pure', it is usually a 9 or 10 per cent solution. If you sniff it and it makes you turn away quickly then it has not 'gone off'. So long as you remove all the water down to the substrate after you have fully cycled and refill with new water you will be fine. Shoudl there be any ammonia 'trapped' in the substrate which eventually gets released it will be disposed of by the filter bacteria. I wouldn't worry, the fact that you are prepared to do a fishless cycle in the first place means you already know more than many, many people when it comes to fish care.

 
Thanks for the information.
 
I think after i've concluded the fishless cycle, I'll do several full water changes, disturbing the substrate as much as possible before each water change so as to get trapped nitrogens out. I remember way back when I introduced German Rams to an aquarium which had completed a fishless cycle just 1 day earlier and they would constantly 'flash' when they were near the substrate. If a fish needs to relieve itself from pain either because of parasite attachment or ammonia poisoning it wouldn't exclusively go to the substrate to flash which, for me, gave the game away that it was small amounts of toxins coming out the substrate.
 
With regards to the ammonia product I can confirm that it does still have a strong smell when you remove the lid so i'll be sure to use it for the fishless cycle

 
I think you may be misreading the symptom.  They flashed on the substrate, because it was coarse enough to "scratch the itch".  I've seen bears scratching themselves on trees, but never blamed the tree for being the reason they are scratching on it.
 
Putting a sensitive fish like GBRs into an immature tank is never a good idea.  They are fish that do much better in mature (6+ months) tanks.  There's more to the fish keeping hobby that we currently understand.  And some fish, like GBRs, discus, etc. often die for unknown reasons in immature tanks.
 
 
 
 

>>Everything in the water, including the water, would interact with the substrate, surely?
 
I typically have a 1.5 inch deep sand layer, however, segments can get much deeper if I've burrowed an hole(s) when positioning and planting new plants. I will keep the substrate thin so that it is more difficult for food/plants/faeces to get buried.

 
Silica (sand) is highly unreactive.  For this reason it is used to make glass, specifically glassware used in chemistry labs.  It is its unreactive properties that make it so attractive for many uses.
 

 
I think that the GBR's that die soon after introduction do so because of inappropriate substrates and rocks that are capable of changing the carbonate hardness or general hardness of the water. There's a plant substrate, for instance, that increases the carbonate hardness on the basis that if plants don't get enough C02, they will revert to taking up the constituents that make up carbonate hardness to survive. GBR's require low concentrations of carbonate hardness.
 
With regards to the itching, yes the sand was course, but it would only flash off of it if it had been disturbed beforehand or if it was swimming close to it. While swimming near the substrate it would stop and contort its body like a snake (the fishes body from front to back would look like an 'S') or would dart from the substrate upwards as though it had been burn't or badly irritated. 
 
None of this behaviour happened towards the upper segments of the tank as though the water was less toxic here. There was plenty of wood, rocks, leaves, glass and filtration body for it to rub itself on at these levels but it seldom did so.
 
This is just my interpretation really after having observed GBR's over a lengthy period.