Thinking Of Getting A Pair Of These Red Eye Blood Swords

[dunchp]

Crikey guys, play nicely. If there is one thing likely to turn off new posters, it is established posters squabbling amongst themselves.

Regarding Stocking Levels, I understand what you are saying Neale, however the problem is that PFKs own website sets out that you can keep 41cm of fish in a 10 gallon tank; so as professional writers you cannot say on one hand that it is cruel to keep a pair of swords in a 10 gallon tank and on the other hand say that you can keep 41cm of fish in the same tank.

I for one am a caring swordtail (amongst others) keeper and currently have pairs of Xiphophorus nigrensis and continens doing well in 24x15x8 (10 gallon approx) aquaria. I don't think it is cruel, although I do not keep montezumae, helleri, kalmanni, birchmanni, mayae etc etc in anything less than a 20 gallon tank.

Regarding Inbreeding, the previous writer set out that the fish was a natural mutation which was subsequently harnessed; unless I am mistaken, the subsequent harnessing would involve (line) inbreeding.

My opinion is that there is no comparison between the fish shown and wild swordtails, in my own opinion wild swordtails are far more beautiful, but I am happy to agree to disagree on that point. The great thing about the hobby is that is big enough to fit in all our interests.

If you want them, go for it and enjoy.

 

[BlueBettaUSA]

I never said that they weren't inbred I disputed your statement that they are "higly inbred" which is quite different. You might want to review your statement. These fish are from several distinct lines that feature differences amongst them. Obviously the first fish had to be inbred in order to produce the line. My 9yr old son understands that, however, your assertion of "highly" is quite incorrect.

Once again let me help teach you something ! If you read the paper Photic control of the proportions of two visual pigments in a fish. Vision Res. 10: 1077-1112. You will find his findings as the following:" Since the summer of 1992 I have studied the retinal cell biology of albino fish held under defined light conditions. These are a useful animal model for investigating the mechanisms by which light damages the human eye. In contrast to nocturnal rodents, fish have duplex retinas designed for diurnal vision, with both rods and 3-4 spectral classes of cones, including an ultraviolet cone photoreceptor. Albino rat retinas (lacking the melanin screening pigment) are permanently damaged by exposure to 200 lux cyclic or 30 lux constant light, which apparently triggers photoreceptor cell suicide via programmed cell death (apoptosis). In contrast, albino trout, even when exposed to full sunlight (~100,000 lux) or constant light (3000lux), are greatly resistant to light damage. In collaboration with Craig HawryshynÕs lab at the University of Victoria, we have shown that affected albino trout do sustain apoptotic cell death throughout the retina as shown by TUNEL label, and in small areas of central retina there is a loss of rod cells. However, for the most part, dying rods are replaced and many rods lose only the light-absorbing rod outer segments (ROS); moreover, the surviving rod inner segments and all cone structures are spared damage. In addition, we have shown by PCNA labeling of the nuclear layers that stem cells begin to replace most dying rods immediately at the onset of damaging light treatment. When affected albinos are subsequently protected from sunlight, their rods cease dying, stem cell replacement wanes and rods re-grow normal ROS. We have now established that albinos of several fish species vary in their resistance to photo-degeneration, but all are relatively resistant to light damage. "


While your having fun reading you may also want to peruse the following:

Allen, D. M., Deramus, K., Pipes, C. and Ted Hallows. (1999). A comparison of light-induced rod degeneration in two albino teleost models. In: Retinal Degenerative Diseases and Experimental Therapy, Hollyfield, J. G., Anderson, R. E. and LaVail, M. M. eds.) Plenum Press, New York, pp 337-350.

Allen, D. M., Hendricks, G. and T. Hallows. Peripheral rods evade light damage in albino trout. In: Retinal diseases
and Experimental therapy, Anderson et al., eds; Kluwer Academic/Plenum Publishers, New York, 2001.

You may also want to read the book Genetics and Fish Breeding By C. E. Purdom.

 

[nmonks]

Regarding Stocking Levels, I understand what you are saying Neale, however the problem is that PFKs own website sets out that you can keep 41cm of fish in a 10 gallon tank; so as professional writers you cannot say on one hand that it is cruel to keep a pair of swords in a 10 gallon tank and on the other hand say that you can keep 41cm of fish in the same tank.

dunchp -- You're misunderstanding how stocking estimates work (or perhaps the PFK site isn't explaining it clearly). Which needs more space: a one 200 cm tiger shark, or two hundred 2 cm neons? Obviously the shark. Or put it another way, does an oscar need the same amount of space as six dwarf gouramis? Because added together, the six dwarf gouramis have the same total length as an average sized oscar.

So going solely by the "total length of fish" being kept is rubbish. As length increases, volume goes up by a cube, and the "loading" on the tank in terms of filtration and oxygen is related to the volume of the fish. So a 2 cm fish actually needs 8 times as much resources as a 1 cm fish (i.e., 2 x 2 x 2 = 8, whereas 1 x 1 x 1 = 1).

As well as the volume of a fish, you have to factor in behaviour. To take an extreme example: something like an anglerfish which just sits in a corner all day long waiting for prey to swim into its mouth needs much less space than, say, a similar sized Cyprichromis cichlid adapted to bombing about in open water chasing zooplankton.

In other words, what ALL experienced fishkeepers agree on is that while these inch-per-gallon type estimates are fine for getting a ballpark figure, they're rubbish if you don't use them intelligently, modifying your estimate to take into account the size and behavioural needs of your fish.

Swordtails are open water fish. They are highly active animals. Keeping them in a 10 gallon tank is simply not acceptable. Will they live? Yes, quite probably. But there are people who de-claw their cats or keep dogs locked up in apartments all day too -- doesn't make it right.

Cheers, Neale

 

[dunchp]

Thanks for your replys guys; although I already wish that I had not bothered posting.

After this post, I will leave you all to carry on squabbling over whether fish are 'inbred' or 'highly inbred' and other obviously vitally important issues and flexing your piscatorial intellect.

I agree that it is not a good idea to keep the larger swordtails in 50 litre aquaria; however a few of the smaller species such as continens (2.5cm to 3.5cm) and others of similar size are OK; particularly in shallow aquaria of 24x15x8 which have a larger surface area.

Are you really saying that it is cruel to keep a pair of continens in an aquarium 24x15x8?


The most important point that I wanted to make was that it is acceptable for various posters to have different opinions; however the manner of your posts are at best patronising and I for one would appreciate it if you would all tone it down a bit as you will be scaring new posters off and I for one do not want to contribute to a forum which lacks basic respect.

 

[starrynightxxi]

ultimately, the argument boils down to these particular fish. maybe continens could be in a 10 gallon, but they are only an inch long. I have gone to the CorysRUs website and these fish are young XL fish so likely to reach 6 inches. That's definately too big for a 10g IMO, though admittedly they will probably not be as active as their shortfinned cousins, much like fancy bettas vs. plakats.

as for opinions on the modifications of domesticity, I'm not sure if that's a fair argument to have on this thread. And this "highly inbred" trouble we're having, it wasn't even Neale who originally said it so there's no sense in making him defend it's being said, regardless of whether it is true or not.

 

[Butch]

I bet the male in the picture probably not sired the females' fry (in lyretail) and I thought albino are sterile sometimes, I know albino fancy guppies are sterile. Neale have best advice for everyone. These swordtails are highly inbred, no doubt since they are in limited numbers. Even with these highfins, they are so active swimmers like fantail goldfish....

 

[jollysue]

Yes, A moderate middle of the road discussion of the fish that would invite folks interested in such fish is what I was after.

I had a big long post about this, but I erased it.

Thanks for the input, it is the approach that I look for and am disappointed when you guys are run off as well as the newer members who would like to learn. Semantic arguments and red herrings don't further real learning.

I enjoy civil investigative discussions and exchanges where everyone learns and is open to learn.

If I decide to do aquarium developed livebearers, I would like to learn about them, not rehash old hobbyist arguments. I breed 20"-30" of long fin Corys in 10 usg tanks. So the tank size argument and the aquarium devoloped finnage argument is falling on deaf ears.

 

[helterskelter]

I know Dunchp for 4-5 years (well before using this forum) now and can say he knows what he's talking and it's posts like this that drive established member like my self away!!!!

I think we all need to chill a little and just go down the middle of the rad here, I'm not willing to join the debate as i dont want to be dragged in to this screaming!!!!!