The Nitrate Debate

well I've finally got my Nitrates down. I've just done another 60 litre water change and the Nitrate test is now yellow instead of orange. Anyone following my other threads will know I've got another problem now. In my efforts to get my Nitrates down I've created a major phosphate problem. Never rains and all that ....
 
Akasha72 said:
well I've finally got my Nitrates down. I've just done another 60 litre water change and the Nitrate test is now yellow instead of orange. Anyone following my other threads will know I've got another problem now. In my efforts to get my Nitrates down I've created a major phosphate problem. Never rains and all that ....
 
If I may.... "don't fix it if it ain't broke" would be my advice.  
 
oh it's broken Eagles ... really broken. I have phosphates in my tap water that reads at 1.6-ish. In order to keep my tank free of BBA I have to run a phosphate remover. This was why I started water changing fortnightly - partly to cut costs but also because it's a pain in the bum! The downside of cutting water changes had allowed the nitrates to steadily rise.  
 
Now my Nitrates are down but my phosphate is reading at 1.8ppm which is making the fish sickly again and a return of black algae. I actually can't win. I'm getting some help and great advice regarding the phosphate on my other thread though. I'm just annoyed my water company likes to make things difficult for me - not to mention expensive
 
Akasha72 said:
oh it's broken Eagles ... really broken. I have phosphates in my tap water that reads at 1.6-ish. In order to keep my tank free of BBA I have to run a phosphate remover. This was why I started water changing fortnightly - partly to cut costs but also because it's a pain in the bum! The downside of cutting water changes had allowed the nitrates to steadily rise.  
 
Now my Nitrates are down but my phosphate is reading at 1.8ppm which is making the fish sickly again and a return of black algae. I actually can't win. I'm getting some help and great advice regarding the phosphate on my other thread though. I'm just annoyed my water company likes to make things difficult for me - not to mention expensive
 
My statement was in terms of the nitrate.  
 
ahh I see lol even so I don't want it getting too high if I can help it
 
I was able to exchange some emails with Dr. Neale Monks this past week, discussing nitrates as I had promised, so I will add some clarification and new information received from Neale.  My original post, #7 in this thread, pretty much stands as it is; it was based upon research including articles by Dr. Monks, so that is not surprising, but I may be able to make some of it a bit clearer.
 
As to the unit, when Neale refers to keeping nitrates below 20 ppm he is doing so with the basic hobby kits like the API in mind.  He suggests that more emphasis be placed on the colours than the numbers with these kits.  Referring specifically to the API, he says its card ranges from yellow (low) to red-brown (high).  Nitrates in the yellow or orange are fine; in the red is not good for sensitive fish (he specifically mentions dwarf cichlids and mollies), while red-brown is not good for anything long-term.  The aim should be to keep nitrates as low as possible, and live plants and water changes are the best ways to achieve this if nitrate is an issue as with sensitive species.  He notes that excessive nitrates are usually resultant from poor maintenance, overstocking, or overfeeding.
 
Just to put some numbers to these colours for those without the API card...yellow is zero, yellow-orange is 5 ppm, and orange is 10 ppm;  orange-red is 20 ppm, red is 40 ppm and 80 ppm (I cannot tell the difference), and brown is 160 ppm.
 
I asked Neale about issues caused by nitrates, and he confirmed that over the long-term, high nitrates will stress fish, causing a weakening of the immune system creating an opportunity for disease, and a shorter lifespan.  He mentioned that hexamita and hole in the head in cichlids are now associated with high nitrate levels, and he agreed that Malawi Bloat may well be due to nitrates, and keeping nitrates below 20 ppm for all cichlids is advisable.
 
We briefly discussed the studies on commercial fish and how they may relate to the hobbyist.  Neale pointed out that nitrate is complicated. The lethal level of nitrate for some fish experimented on in labs seems to be high, supposedly 100 ppm or more. On the other hand, scientists have only tested a very few (big) species, farmed trout for example, and often their experiments are shorter term things, like how many of the fish die across, say, a week or a month. We're keeping a hundred different species often for years if not decades, so our experiences (and expectations) are different.
 
Hope this helps.
 
Byron.
 
Byron said:
As to the unit, when Neale refers to keeping nitrates below 20 ppm he is doing so with the basic hobby kits like the API in mind.  He suggests that more emphasis be placed on the colours than the numbers with these kits.  Referring specifically to the API, he says its card ranges from yellow (low) to red-brown (high).  Nitrates in the yellow or orange are fine; in the red is not good for sensitive fish (he specifically mentions dwarf cichlids and mollies), while red-brown is not good for anything long-term.  The aim should be to keep nitrates as low as possible, and live plants and water changes are the best ways to achieve this if nitrate is an issue as with sensitive species.  He notes that excessive nitrates are usually resultant from poor maintenance, overstocking, or overfeeding.
 
Just to put some numbers to these colours for those without the API card...yellow is zero, yellow-orange is 5 ppm, and orange is 10 ppm;  orange-red is 20 ppm, red is 40 ppm and 80 ppm (I cannot tell the difference), and brown is 160 ppm.
 
So... the goal is to keep the nitrates below ~40ppm... for most fish, and below 20ppm for the most sensitive species (I was thinking discus, but I can see others being sensitive like that as well).
 
If Nitrates are coming out of your tap at 40PPM what are the best ways to lower it?
 
I always thought around 40 was fine for most tropical species (Discus aside).
 
Are there recommended additives?  Best ways to achieve lower Nitrates without additives if water changes don't work (including RO)?  Can other issues be caused?
 
when I go shopping this week I'm going to see if I can get an API nitrate test. According to my JBL test my nitrate is back in the 'okay' zone but as all the info from Dr Monks is for the API kit I can't convert it.
 
I actually hate the JBL nitrate test. You need to add two spoons full of this dry dust stuff that refuses to dissolve no matter how hard you shake it or for how long. We all know the API one isn't much better when it comes to shaking the bottles but it is a little easier
 
Akasha72 said:
when I go shopping this week I'm going to see if I can get an API nitrate test. According to my JBL test my nitrate is back in the 'okay' zone but as all the info from Dr Monks is for the API kit I can't convert it.
 
I actually hate the JBL nitrate test. You need to add two spoons full of this dry dust stuff that refuses to dissolve no matter how hard you shake it or for how long. We all know the API one isn't much better when it comes to shaking the bottles but it is a little easier
 
The difference between the two is that you likely just can't see that the one reagent isn't dissolved... it gives the illusion of being better mixed.   "Ignorance is bliss".
 
eaglesaquarium said:
 
As to the unit, when Neale refers to keeping nitrates below 20 ppm he is doing so with the basic hobby kits like the API in mind.  He suggests that more emphasis be placed on the colours than the numbers with these kits.  Referring specifically to the API, he says its card ranges from yellow (low) to red-brown (high).  Nitrates in the yellow or orange are fine; in the red is not good for sensitive fish (he specifically mentions dwarf cichlids and mollies), while red-brown is not good for anything long-term.  The aim should be to keep nitrates as low as possible, and live plants and water changes are the best ways to achieve this if nitrate is an issue as with sensitive species.  He notes that excessive nitrates are usually resultant from poor maintenance, overstocking, or overfeeding.
 
Just to put some numbers to these colours for those without the API card...yellow is zero, yellow-orange is 5 ppm, and orange is 10 ppm;  orange-red is 20 ppm, red is 40 ppm and 80 ppm (I cannot tell the difference), and brown is 160 ppm.
 
So... the goal is to keep the nitrates below ~40ppm... for most fish, and below 20ppm for the most sensitive species (I was thinking discus, but I can see others being sensitive like that as well).
 
This may be over-simplistic, and likely misleading to some members.  Perhaps I was too brief, for fear of complicating things.
 
First problem is, just what are "sensitive" fish?  Neale mentioned dwarf cichlids and mollies when he made this statement in our email exchanges, but this was only a "sensitive fish like dwarf cichlids and mollies..." statement, not an absolute that these two and no others.  In an article on Malawi bloat, dropsy and similar symptoms he plainly states that nitrates should be kept below 20 ppm for rift lake cichlids, and during our discussion he agreed when I made this statement.  He has frequently written that all cichlids likely have issues when nitrates are above 20 ppm.  So one can surmise that cichlids are "sensitive"...how many other fish are the same?
 
The other thing that was clear during our exchange is that we (aquarists) do not yet know the full story on nitrates, and Neale was quick to assert that he is no expert in this area.  The fact that the afore-mentioned disease issues are now being linked to nitrates as at least one source suggests that we may in time find out many other similarly-related disease issues.  When I made the observation that natural habitat waters of our fish contain extremely low and even no nitrates, and that nitrates would presumably weaken such fish, he readily agreed.  Trying to put numbers on where this becomes critical is very difficult.  Hence, he tends to advise keeping them below 20 ppm.  
 
I was yesterday re-reading the section on nitrification in the excellent book The Manual of Fish Health authored by Dr. Chris Andrews, Adrian Exell, Dr. Dr. Neville Carrington and Dr. Peter Burgess, and noted they advise nitrates be kept below 20 ppm maximum.  Neale does boil all this down to aiming for nitrates to be as low as possible.
 
okay ... but my laetacara curvicep cichlid falls into the 'sensitive' category but neither him - nor his mate before she jumped out of my tank unnoticed - ever suffered with any disease at all. They are the only fish in my tank that have never succumbed to anything. They are either seriously hardy or are carrying some gene that prevents them from getting sick. I've always suspected they are wild caught actually.
 
Currently I have a harlequin with some problem that appears to be phosphate poisoning related and my tetra's are affected too. I've seen a bronze cory with the same thing but my angels and curviceps are clean of anything. If they were so sensitive they'd be the first to fall ill
 
I'm not trying to say Dr Monks is wrong I'm just throwing this open for discussion. I can only relate what I'm seeing and I'd never class curviceps as sensitive. I've not had the angels long enough yet to make the same claim but so far they appear to be hardy. My high po4 is affecting them - that much is clear but with the cichlids it's not affecting them outwardly. I'd say they are a little stressed but there's no physical illness I can see visually
 
It's all a little confusing to be honest
 
Yes, Akasha...the problem is that we are in the unknown, in any degree of certainty.  Let me use the water parameters as an analogy.  Soft water fish may seem to live fine for a period until they suddenly die.  No external signs of any disease or problem, no abnormal behaviour.  But upon dissection, the kidneys are discovered to be blocked with calcium, the result of the hardness of the water.
 
"Sensitive" is another of those general terms we use, but without really being able to accurately define it.
 
Also, Dr. Monks is not the only one saying this, it is becoming more common as science learns more about the fish; the book I mentioned earlier is authored by leading fish health experts.  There was a day when no one changed water (some still won't) and their fish allegedly lived fine.  But most of us change water regularly, and we believe it is beneficial.  I accept the science (until it may be proven wrong) and what to me is the obvious.
 
There will always be the exception.  Not everyone who smokes will get cancer, but many do, and smoking is an obvious risk.  Reducing the risks is our goal. 
fish.gif
 
I get it now ... thanks for being patient with the way my mind works. I know many people find me annoying because I question everything but I do that because I don't always have things explained the way I need it.
 
An old friend of mine used an analogy when he was trying to teach me about computers. I just couldn't get my mind around it. Then he came up with 'wardrobe terms'!! He made me laugh but it worked. "here is the wardrobe (the computer) and this is how you open it (boot it up) and inside is a series of drawers (folders) and this is how you open them" 
 
I realise that probably makes me sounds simple but that is how my mind works. When I was in college learning my trade (dressmaking) I could read the instructions till I blue in the face but sometimes the tutor just had to sit with me and show me ... explaining didn't work but visual guidance did. 
 
 
I still don't understand why I have some fish showing outward symptoms that I can see with my eyes but the cichlids arn't though lol Either way the problem will get fixed though :) 
 
I treat nitrates as the canary in the coal mine. Nitrates are easy to measure so when they start to build up we can easily measure them and see that build. There are literally dozens of chemicals that tend to become more and more concentrated in aquarium water that we do not measure. I consider a nitrate build as indicating that my water's chemical concentration is increasing and I bring it back down with a water change. I have no idea what nitrate level is safe but I can measure the concentration in my tap water and then decide when the concentration has doubled. For me, that is my change point. If I give someone the numbre they will figure that is a safe number. If they are on the same well as me it really might be, but each of us must determine when chemical contaminant levels are becoming excessive.
 

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