The Nitrate Debate

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Akasha72

Warning - Mad Cory Woman
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I'm opening this up as several times now I've seen varying degree's of advice regarding what level we should allow our Nitrate to be.
 
I was taught Nitrate readings up to 60 were okay but best to keep it nearer to 40. I've read from other members that it should remain below 20. I feel it's confusing and conflicting advice to newbies and I think as experienced aquarists we should be all singing from the same song sheet.
 
Also, we are well versed in the knowledge that Nitrate tests are often slightly inaccurate and difficult to read which just confused things further.
 
Personally my tank runs at around 40 and all seems fine and normal at that level. Achieving 20ppm seems an impossible task.
 
So, I'll open this up for debate now, what do we think 
 
I've just tested my Nitrate and it would seem it's still steady at 40ppm. I've never been able to get it below this level. Each time I test it's always at this level and I'm heavily planted and don't add any ferts containing Nitrates.
 
I've checked my JBL kit booklet and that seems to infer that Nitrate only becomes dangerous for freshwater when it hits 80ppm. Again, conflicting advice. It's all too confusing 
noexpression.gif
 
The issue is that you are looking for a 'one size fits all' solution to a very customized scenario.  Each species of fish has its own tolerance for nitrates... discus for example are extremely intolerant of nitrates.  Other species are extremely hardy in all sorts of levels of nitrates, being imperceptibly affected by nitrates into the hundreds of ppm.
 
 
Next is the issue of what the tap water you are using comes out at.  If you start with a 20ppm nitrate reading or even 40ppm from the tap, getting the nitrates LOWER than 40 is a nearly impossible task.  It can be done, but not without some serious concentrated efforts to do so.  
 
One thing that we do say around here a lot is 20-40 ppm above your tap water...  This would indicate a very good maintenance program by the aquarist, as the water changes wouldn't allow the nitrates to rise too high, and would be providing fresh water to the fish on a regular basis.  The fish can normally adapt to that sort of nitrate level.
 
There are specialized species, however, that require far different levels of nitrate and often folks use RO water to meet the needs of those specific fish, however these are not fish that I'd ever recommend to a novice aquarist.
 
 
 
 
We on the fresh side have a far more complicated set of instructions than the salty side.  Freshwater sources for our fish come in such a wide range of parameters... from the ridiculously soft and acidic waters of South America where discus occur naturally, all the way to the hard, alkaline waters of the African Rift Valley.  Its quite a range.   Our marine brethren have much more stringent guidelines for their fish, because the water their fish comes from is far more uniform than that of the fresh side.   That's the cross that we must bear on the fresh side.   The cross for the salties is that they need their nitrates to run roughly 0ppm all the time, in addition to the ammonia and nitrite.
 
thanks for that Eagles. I posted because I wanted to be sure I was giving correct advice to newbies regarding water chemistry whilst feeling rather confused by it myself!  I've been given so much conflicting advice myself over the years
 
I change a small portion of water (about 15-20%) in my goldfish tank every week, which holds around 35 gallons (max 40), with one large goldfish and two young weather-loaches. The nitrate level prior to water-change is usually around 20ppm (or let's say between 20 and 40ppm on the API colour-chart). The tank has mainly silk plants and then a couple of small fern-like real plants. My tap water doesn't normally have any nitrates.
My new tropical tank (110 litres) also has a weekly water freshener, I change out around 20 litres (2x10 litre buckets, about 4 gallons). The nitrate level is usually somewhere between 10 and 20ppm, prior to the change. It holds 2 dwarf gouramis, 6 neon tetras and 4 cherry shrimp. There are two very bushy ceratopteris siliquosa plants, one other whose label I've lost, and a small group of floating plants with long roots.....and some algae.
I suppose I try to keep the nitrates in the medium to low range....in the past, when I've had higher levels (40+), my two elderly goldfish sometimes looked a bit sick. Thus I ensured I changed their water more often. I'm still learning about tropicals.
 
I am not home but I believe my test kit list 40 ppm as the recommended maximum.  And as stated by others diffrent fish will have different tolerance levels. I don't worry about it because I have a planted tank with good plant growth..  My nitrates are often at zero or barely register. I have had more issues with Phosphates than any form of nitrogen.  I Use RO water so I know nitrogen and phosphates are not coming from my tap water.  I have in fact been lightly dosing my tank with nitrate fertilizer to help get the phosphate levels down and that does seem to work.
 
I suspect it was my post in another thread that opened this discussion, so it is only fair that I add to it.  I will try to be general rather than scientific for the present.
 
First, we must acknowledge and accept that all forms of nitrogen compounds are toxic at some level.  Ammonia and nitrite affect fish at very low levels, as low as 0.25 ppm.  "Affect" does not mean instant death, though it will eventually lead to death depending upon the fish species, the level of ammonia/nitrite, and some other factors.  The effects of nitrate in fish are apparently very similar to nitrite, except generally it takes a higher level of nitrate, over a longer period, to cause death; simply stated, nitrate like nitrite blocks the blood's capability to carry oxygen.
 
Another thing to keep in mind is that nitrate is toxic to humans.  The EPA in the USA prohibits nitrate in drinking water to be above 10 ppm.  Even this level is dangerous to some people, such as infants and pregnant women.
 
At this point, we need to consider that there are also two measurement units for nitrate.  The scientific community tends to use the nitrate scale, shown as "Nitrate-nitrogen," whereas the hobby kits tend to be total nitrate ions.  The conversion factor is 4.43 so 10 ppm N-n (the drinking water limit) is 43.3 ppm with our hobby kits.
 
Back to the fish.  The relationship of fish to their aquatic environment is much greater than the relationship of terrestrial animals to air.  Anything and everything added to the water gets inside the fish, in its bloodstream and internal organs.  So right off, we have a much greater impact on fish than would be the case with land animals.  All of these "undesirables" adds to the stress on fish, which weakens the immune system and other processes.
 
Nitrate toxicity to fishes increases with increasing nitrate concentrations and with exposure times.  Freshwater fishes appear from studies to be more sensitive than marine fishes to nitrate toxicity.  Not surprising, most of the published studies have concentrated on commercial fish stocks, but some of their findings cannot be discounted for ornamental (aquarium) fishes.  Nitrate levels as low as 2 and 4 ppm N-n [8 and 18 ppm using aquarium kits] significantly affected the development of fry.  One study concluded that the nitrate level of 10 ppm [44.3 ppm] allowed in drinking water would long-term affect invertebrates, fishes and amphibians.  To protect sensitive freshwater fish species, a maximum level of 2 ppm [9 ppm using our kits] nitrate was concluded.  This latter study is "Nitrate Toxicity to Aquatic Animals: A Review with New Data for Freshwater Invertebrates," (Julio Camargo, Alvaro Alonso and Annabella Salamanca), in Chemosphere (2005), some of which is available free here:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8063535_Nitrate_Toxicity_to_Aquatic_Animals_A_Review_With_New_Data_for_Freshwater_Invertebrates
 
Dr. Neale Monks has regularly recommended that nitrate be kept below 20 ppm, and I assume he is using our aquarium test kit scale.  I happen to be personal friends with Neale, and I intend to delve into this issue with him once the holidays are past us.  In the meantime, his limit of 20 ppm can be found elsewhere in relation to cichlids for example.  Dr. Monks has written that it is likely that all cichlid species will be affected by prolonged exposure to nitrate at 20 ppm.
 
A last comment.  We should consider that none of the freshwater fish species we maintain in tropical aquaria are exposed to nitrates in their habitats.  When nitrates are detected, they are near-zero.  Fish have evolved to function best in such environments.  It should make sense to all of us that elevated levels of nitrates is likely to have some impact at some point, which has been the finding of every study to date.
 
Byron.
 
Dr. Neale Monks has regularly recommended that nitrate be kept below 20 ppm, and I assume he is using our aquarium test kit scale.  I happen to be personal friends with Neale, and I intend to delve into this issue with him once the holidays are past us.
 
 
Byron, great information.  Please let us know what you learn after talking to him.  Also try to confirm what test kit methode he is using.
 
it wasn't just your post Byron that made me start this. I keep reading differing views about Nitrate levels from various members which was why I thought we should discuss it.
 
I try to give accurate advise to newbies at all times and if I don't know the answer I'll either say I don't know or decline to comment. I think it's only fair to give those entering the hobby the right advise and it needs to be consistent or we are just confusing them. When I was a newbie I was told Nitrate should sit at 40-60ppm and my JBL kit booklet seems to agree with that. But you, Byron, say it should never be higher than 20ppm which is what has set me questioning what I was told. I need to clarify things for my own purpose and help others too :)
 
Just to add. My Laetacara Curviceps cichlid has been with me over 4 years now and this is a species that is sensitive to Nitrates. My Nitrate, as previously mentioned, has never been below 40ppm as far as I'm aware, but it has reached as high as 80ppm once after a period of illness when I was unable to do my usual water change routine. Curviceps had become sluggish and had lost some colour at that point. Once I'd stablized back down to my usual 40ppm he bounced back.
 
He has either got used to 'the norm' or my test kit is wrong if Dr Monks is right 
Dunno.gif
 
Akasha72 said:
Just to add. My Laetacara Curviceps cichlid has been with me over 4 years now and this is a species that is sensitive to Nitrates. My Nitrate, as previously mentioned, has never been below 40ppm as far as I'm aware, but it has reached as high as 80ppm once after a period of illness when I was unable to do my usual water change routine. Curviceps had become sluggish and had lost some colour at that point. Once I'd stablized back down to my usual 40ppm he bounced back.
 
He has either got used to 'the norm' or my test kit is wrong if Dr Monks is right 
Dunno.gif
 
There are few hard rules in this hobby, only guidelines, and provided these are reliable (which depends upon the source) it is best to follow the guidelines.  As we know from other issues like fish behaviour, an individual fish can function outside the norm, while another may not be so lucky,  The other thing here is that our test kits are not scientifically accurate, so they are probably hitting close but not necessarily spot on.
 
There are also other factors involved in fish health.  Stress is the main one; more than 90% of all fish disease is caused directly by stress.  Obviously the pathogen or whatever must be present, but it is the stress factor that causes the fish to succumb.  So anything we can do to reduce stress will mean healthier fish.  And stress is caused by those aspects of the environment/water/aquarium that is different from that in which the species is designed to function.  But again, species are different, and individuals within a species may be different.
 
Byron.
 
hi again and thanks for the replies. I decided to take a photograph of my test card for my JBL test kit tonight to show you all what this is showing. Here it is
 
002_zpsc9h04lnu.jpg

 
 
Top line is for Marine, middle line for freshwater and bottom line is for ponds (koi)
 
From this you can see where the confusion comes from seen as it's different dependent on the fish.
 
I've currently got a treatment in my tank for cyanobacteria which needs 14 days of no water changes but once that period is up I'm planning on attempting to get my Nitrates down nearer to 20. My recent test was close to the pale orange of '40' but in a different light it could have been nearer to the darker orange of '80' and as there is no colour for '60' I am worried. I worried that my Nitrate is higher than I think but I'm also mindful that the test may be giving me a reading I can't trust.
 
All that said the talk of keeping Nitrates below 20 has got me worrying and so I have to try and do something about it.
 
Akasha72 said:
All that said the talk of keeping Nitrates below 20 has got me worrying and so I have to try and do something about it.
 
Have you considered floating plants?  A plant like duckweed (while nearly impossible to get rid of, though some fish love to eat it) is like a nitrogen sponge.  The duckweed can be scooped out easily, and used as a mulch/fertilizer for terrestrial plants as well...  
 
If you don't like duckweed (and there's reasons not to enjoy it), there are plenty of other options too.
 
If at all possible, always read test colours in daylight, not direct sunlight but good daylight.  I have even found differences when I open the window compared to the light coming through the glass.  I have trouble discerning the greens on the API pH test cards, and it is always a bit easier if I open the door and use direct daylight.  And all artificial light will distort colours, sometimes scarcely noticeably, due to the colour phosphors in the specific tube or bulb.  Aside from daylight, I find that moving the tube around, close to and then further away from, the colour chart sometimes helps.  Another thing that sometimes makes it clearer is to test two or three tanks and hold the three different tubes over the chart.  If the tanks are identical, obviously this doesn't achieve much, but if there is some even slight variation, it sometimes becomes quite obvious.
 
Byron.
 
I have said this before on another thread but to reiterate. I use the API Master Test Kit for my nitrate tests and the readings are consistently 80ppm...or they might be 160ppm because you cannot see the difference on the test chart. In any event my water has been like this for fifteen years despite regular, very large water changes. My fish do not die of nitrate poisoning, merely of old age. I have twelve-year-old Clown Loaches that are still growing steadily, none have died, none have been ill.
 
It is only my humble opinion but I think that nitrate readings are largely irrelevant in a tank where water is changed regularly (and I mean at least once a week). Fish are not made of glass and their physiology, like our own, is perfectly capable of dealing with changes in environmental conditions.
 
Don't get fixated with nitrate levels, just do water changes and forget about them.
 

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