Starting A 200L Tropical Tank

[Gruntle]

Hi there!

 
So I’m not exactly new to the game, having maintained an Aqua One AR620T (130 litres) for three years, and apart from the early losses while I was learning the craft (and completely unaware of the fishless cycle, thanks LFS), the tank is stable and the fish are peaceful and growing. I have 5 goldfish and a couple of catfish (BN and a Chinese Algae Eater).

 
Not knowing any better, I followed the instructions from the LFS, the guy there seemed quite knowledgeable and has won awards for his fish, however as it turns out I had a fish-in cycle happening. Everything went fairly well until about 3 months in, when I added another couple of fish, bringing the total to 8 comets. The next morning all were floating upside down, and the BN pleco was also deceased. So I cleaned the whole lot out and started again, and after a fortnight everything was go, and I've not lost a fish since. I get the impression I went through a mini-cycle that was too much for the poor little things.

 
I recently purchased a second hand 200l (56g) 4 foot tank (48” by 18” by 15”) and intend to set up a tropical paradise. I have a few questions about it.

 
It has an Aquis 1000 filter in it, but I've set it up as per instructions and I'm getting a rattling noise. Once I disassembled it, I found some of the bio-balls have come up the outlet pipe to the impeller and are rattling in the pipe. Can I just put an extra sponge (plenty of room) on top of the bio-balls to stop them coming up the pipe?

 
Being in Australia, I couldn't find ammonia until I found a seller on ebay, I'm a couple of days into the cycle and intend to do a fairly large media swap (clay nodules in both tanks) this weekend to hopefully kick-start the cycle. If the tank has 3.5ppm ammonia, will this affect the existing bacteria (or fish) in the established tank?

 
I also inherited what I believe to be Australian Rainbow fish, they are currently coexisting in the goldfish tank (it's summer here so the water's 24 degrees). When I finish cycling, I’m hoping to stock with:
3 Australian Rainbow Fish.
12 Head and Taillight Tetras.
12 Neon Tetras.
6 Glass Catfish.
2 BN Plecos.
Plants, plants and more plants.
Maybe some snails, I love the big golden Mystery snails.
According to my research this appears to be a suitable mix and quantity, the Rainbows should provide the centrepiece while the others add their own special mix of colour and movement. I have driftwood so the BN’s should be happy. I’m desperately keen to get started, but I know patience is the key...

 
I’ve also heard that Neons can be delicate, so would it be an idea to move the goldfish into the new tank for a while to help establish the water, or is that just too stressful on them to move them and back again, are Tetras hardier than that? And should I stock all the fish if the tank’s completely cycled, or do it gradually?

 
One final question, when I clean the tank, should I leave the plants in the gravel? It seems a bit invasive to take them out and disturb the roots, but if I don’t suck the gravel around the plants, will this cause any issues long term? It hasn’t really been a problem until now, I used to have a fish who would decimate any plant I put in, I have since re-homed him to someone with a pond. Since he’s gone, the plants are flourishing.

 
Current tank parameters:
Water 24 degrees
Ammonia 3.5ppm
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
pH 7.4 (I think this is a bit high, but with driftwood I believe it will come down while the tank cycles).

 
I also have a picture, but it’s a bare tank so it’s pretty boring. For now... And sorry for the long post!
 

 

[Ch4rlie]

Hello, an interesting read and unfortunately not one that is unfamiliar. LFS giving not the best advice is pretty common and many of our members have fallen into the same trap as you.
 
Although to be fair, not all LFS are like this and some chain stores are slowly improving their advice given but fish in cycle advice is still pretty rife though. 
 
Now for your questions, adding sponge media on top of your bio balls should be perfectly fine.
 
Ammonia, I would recommend you add 3.0ppm rather than 3.5ppm as per the cycling a tank article (link below), in actual fact its ammonia that the bacteria needs to survive and grow. But do NOT add ammonia if you have livestock in the tank, this will most likely kill them.
 
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/421488-cycling-your-new-fresh-water-tank-read-this-first/
 
As for your Australian rainbow fish, can you specify which species you have, 3 is not really enough as most Rainbowfish are shoaling fish and their numbers need to be at least 6+. 
 
Mixing tropicals with goldfish is not particularly recommended.
(Am a bit unsure if you are actually mixing these but will mention this anyway to be sure.)
Goldfish are cold water fish really and are susceptible to disease and shortening of their life span in warmer waters suited to tropicals. In fact most goldfish need larger tanks than 200l, dependant on which species of goldfish you have. 
 
Neons do best when the tank is established. Beginning to be the case that Neons are not as hardy as once was believed.
Too stressful to move fish back and forth between tanks, not worth it IMO.
 
Once the tank has been successfully fully fishless cycled, you can add all your tank stocking in one go 

 
Cleaning or gravel vac during maintenance, leave the plants where they are just gently gravel vac around the plants but not too deep as the plant roots needs the nutrients from decaying organic matter in gravel. Should not cause any problems at all long term.
 
And do not apologise for the long post, always better to ask everything you can just to be sure. We are always happy to help as best as we can.
 
Do not hesitate to post more questions if you are ever unsure, this is what we're here for  

 

[CrimsonBoli]

I have a 200L with a few of the same fish as you which is planted so I will try an answer a few questions... (16 Neons and 1 BN among others)
 
I wouldnt recommend adding the GoldFish to your new tank as they are very messy and have a heavy bio load on a tank.
I probably wouldnt have 2 BN Plecs especially from early on as there may not be enough algae to graze on. I have to feed my 1 BN with algae wafers daily.
Neons are delicate mainly to PH swings so acclimating them properly after your tank has cycled should not be a problem. Im running my tank at PH 7.8 (Neons require PH 6-8)
 
Don't remove the plants when doing maintenance. siphoning around them is fine.
 
Keep an eye on your fishless cycle. Once its ready, add a few fish per week and monitor. The more plants the easier/safer yours and your fishes lives will be

 

[Gruntle]

I think I overestimated the amount of water in the tank. Sure, it's 200l but probably not completely full and 2" of gravel. I've done a partial water change to reduce the ammonia number to 3ppm.

The Rainbows are only with the goldfish until the new tank is cycled. I know mixing isn't recommended but I didn't have another option at the time. Nothing appears to be going wrong at the moment, although I reckon the bio-load in the tank is a bit high for now. Still, fingers crossed that a media change will advance the cycle and they can have their new space and new friends to play with.

I'm trying to get a photo of the Rainbows and would appreciate help in identification. I've seen a few on-line that look like my fish, but they appear to be different species. If I need more, I might have to drop the glass cats off my stocking plan. Shame, but I'd rather have happy fish.

If pressed, I'd say I have Eastern Rainbowfish - Melanotaenia duboulayi. A female and two males. But once I get a decent photo I hope you can help.

 

[fluttermoth]

Hi there and welcome to the forum

Lots of questions there, so I'll try and answer them all; post back if I missed anything!

Yes, you can put a layer of sponge (filter floss would also work) over the bioballs to keep them in place. They're a good media, but are prone to moving around of their own accord!

No, moving media around won't affect the bacteria or the fish in the cycled tank because of the ammonia level in your cycling one. Just remember you mustn't take more than a quarter of the total media from your cycled tank, or it will lose too many bacteria and give you another mini cycle. But anything up to a quarter is fine.

I wouldn't move the goldfish, no; even though they're very tough, it's still stressful and uncomfortable for them to live through a cycle. The problem with neon tetras, which do seem to do very poorly in new tanks, even if they're properly cycled, seems to be related to the development of something called 'biofilm' in the tank (although this is poorly understood at the moment). Biofilm is a layer of bacteria, algae and other micro organisms that grow on all surfaces in a mature tank and takes around six months to develop; after that point we call the tank 'mature', rather than just 'cycled'. You'd be better off waiting for a while to get the neons.

In theory, after a full fishless cycle, you can add all the stock in one go (apart from the neons in your plan), but most people would still recommend you do it in two or three batches, in case of any problems (and also allows you to change your mind a bit, if you see another fish you want).

Yes; leave the plants in the gravel. Clean around them as best you can, without disturbing the roots. Remember that most of the potential toxins in tanks are dissolved in the water. Unless you're hugely overfeeding, so there's lots of undigested food in it, fish poo is more of a cosmetic concern than a health issue. I knew a breeder of rare dwarf cichlids who said that in some of her tanks, you couldn't see the substrate at all, the mulm was so thick!

I wouldn't worry about your pH; it'll be fine for most fish. Bogwood won't reduce pH by more than 0.1 or so, tbh, unless it's a massive piece that practically fills the tank.

Just a couple of last points on things you haven't actually asked about. Your goldfish, if they're all comets, don't really belong in a tank. They can grow up to a foot long, in the right conditions, so it would be in their best interests if you thought about rehoming them to a pond in the long term. I'm sure they're well looked after, and I bet you're very fond of them, so I know how hard that would be, but it would be better for them.

I don't know much about rainbows. but I think they're all shoaling fish, so you'd need t least six. That would be pushing your stocking, so you might have to drop one of the other species. Personally, I'd have more rainbows and drop one of the tetras (tanks with multiple shoals tend to look a bit 'messy' in most people's opinion, as shoaling fish, when they're comfortable in your tank, won't form tight schools, but more of a diffuse group), although you could keep all the tetras and drop the glass cats (which are very shy, so you might not see much of them, and they do better in larger groups where they feel more secure; nine or a dozen is best for them) or perhaps the bristlenoses (lovely fish, but do make a lot of mess with their poop and their wood rasping).

Hope all that helps

 

[Gruntle]

Thanks for the advice, I've been reading everything I can get my hands on lately because getting this tank was a bit of a surprise, and I'd like to do it all properly this time around, besides, the kids are getting older and I don't really want them to see dead pets one morning.
 
I think I've managed a fair photo of one of the Rainbows.  I have one who's rather thicker-bodied (I assume this means she's a lady), she and one of the others have a well-defined black line. The other (male?) has a less-well defined line.  Unfortunately all my fish-mad friends say "yep, they're Rainbows" but cannot identify species. I hope they continue to get along, and I hope I can find a few more to increase the shoal.
 



As for the goldfish, I have two comets (shubunkins, whatever), a fantail and two black moors.  They looked small when they went into the tank, but 2 years on they're starting to look cramped.
 
BN is about 4" long, and the algae eater is getting close to the same mark. He (she?) could end up being my bigest worry, as he used to chase the others around until my previous problem fish (the one who delighted in uprooting plants and shredding them, I think just to see how red my face went) got a bit big to attack. Since the big one was rehomed, the algae eater has become more of a presence in the tank, and I fear for any fish who dares challenge him.
 
Since the BN is obviously male (spines all over his head), should I find a lady friend for him and hope they breed, or would that just be creating a headache for myself?

 

[fluttermoth]

I don't recognise the rainbow species, I'm afraid; one of our Australian members might though

 
You'd be fine keeping the fantail and the black moors, although you'd need to keep up the water changes, as a 130l is on the small side for three fancies, but the comets/shubunkins would really be better in a pond.
 
The Chinese algae eater is a worry. They get up to a foot long and, as they get older, they stop eating algae and develop a nasty habit of attaching themselves to the sides of other fish and sucking off their slime coat, and can cause some nasty ulcer type wounds, which can be fatal

Their prime targets are slow moving, deep bodied fish, so your goldies could be in trouble. If you can't rehome it, it might be better in the new trop tank, where your proposed fish are a bit faster and more able to stick up for themselves, although you'd have to watch it with the rainbows.
 
BNs breed very easily; your main problem would be getting rid of the youngsters as many shops won't take fish from hobbyists, so ask around before you think of breeding them!

 

[Baccus]

Many of our native rainbows are hard to definitively identify, many are only known by the creek or river system they are found in, because they usually have some slight variation depending on the location.
 
If yours where store bought and not wild caught my best bet would be that they are one of the more common types available.
The Aquagreen site might be able to help you narrow your exact type down

 

[Gruntle]

Day 3 of the cycle and I have the following readings:
 
pH 7.4
Ammonia 2
Nitrites 5+
Nitrates 15
 
Nitrites appear very high, will this slow things down too much?
 
I've decided against the media change, things seem to be going along nicely. Or should I put some more mature media into the filter? Again I'm thinking of a swap of the ceramic noodles.
 
Thanks again for the help so far!

 

[Gruntle]

LFS sells the Rainbow fish (or something extremely similar) as a "Crimson Spotted Rainbow" so increasing the herd shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Gruntle]

Ammonia was 1ppm this morning, and nitrite still over 5. Time for a second dose of ammonia either tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Gruntle]

So I'm not yet 100% happy with the layout yet! I kind of threw all of the gravel and rocks into the tank in a hurry! I think over time I can try and move things around until I like it.

What are your thoughts on a darker substrate with neons and Rainbows? I'm not sure if it will bring out the colours or make it harder to find the fish.

 

[Baccus]

A darker substrate really works well with neon tetras, they seem to really pop and stand out, their colour gets more intense. Rainbows should also show a lot more colour as well. Both species of fish will also enjoy some timber/ roots to zigzag through.
Its hard to see but is there a backing picture or paint on the tank? Most pet shops tend to paint the back of the tank blue to help show off the fish, and I have found with neon tetras if the back of the tank has a planted picture back ground they will hang around that.
Subdued lighting is also a friend to rainbow fish and tetras, plants like amazon frogbit will provide shade and the roots hanging down will give the fish an extra feeling of safety when out in the open.
I think all tanks are a work in progress with tiny improvements constantly being made, so far your tank is looking good and as the plants grow and fill out will keep getting better.

 

[Gruntle]

The back of the tank has a plain blue poster taped on. I like the effect it gives. The LFS has a good deal at the moment on black gravel so I might have to make another trip this week

 

[Gruntle]

Woohoo! Ammonia has dropped to just above 0, Nitrites appear to be not as vividly purple (but still over 5ppm) and Nitrates have jumped from 20 to 80.
 
I've just re-dosed to 3ppm ammonia and I reckon the mature media is doing the trick.
 
Soon, my little finned friends...
 
I've also noticed some grey fungus starting to grow on part of the driftwood, I guess I can scrub this once the tank is cycled, or should I do it now before it spreads?