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Thank you, I followed the thread in real time but I'll familiarise myself again
 
The risk of TB is what put me off Rainbows in the end - when Colin first mentioned it I was hoping he might have been jumping the gun but perhaps with the later posts it could be right.

I wouldn't tear the whole tank down and euthanise everyone straight off - like @Naughts said you could run the tank as a closed tank and still have years with all of them even in a worst case scenario of them having it.
 
I'm hoping that will be the last for now, everyone else for the moment looks OK but who knows, I might wake up tomorrow with another ready to pop 😮‍💨 I've ordered some gloves, I just hope I've not caught it already.

Thankfully I only have this tank, so there's no risk of spreading it...although I wanted to ask what I do with the water I change out? Normally I just water the garden with it, is that still safe to do?
 
I daresay sunlight in the garden will sterilize most bacteria, just don't water lettuce immediately before picking it
 
First off, it isn't the OPs fault. Rainbowfish all around the world die from Fish TB and it's caused by TB coming out of Asian fish farms, and because rainbowfish were never exposed to it. Rainbowfish have only been around for about 10,000 years and Fish TB (Mycobacteria species) have been around since the dawn of time. They are really old species of bacteria that have evolved ways of avoiding the immune system and surviving in places most other bacteria die. They produce a waxy coating around their cell and this protects them from the elements, medications, and the body's immune system.

Mycobacteria have been in European, Asian, African and American waterways for hundreds of millions of years. The fish in those areas have evolved alongside the Mycobacteria and even though they still catch it, they don't die as quickly from it. Because rainbowfish have never evolved with it (Fish TB is not found in wild fish in Australia or New Guinea), they have no way of dealing with it. So when rainbowfish are kept in aquariums with barbs, tetras, gouramis, etc, they pick up these new diseases and die from them. Many rainbowfish breeders also have the disease in their tanks and don't always know, and they spread the disease with fish they sell.

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Dumping used aquarium water on the lawn or garden is fine but do not use it on fruit/ vegetables or plants you eat. Avoid getting it on things like green leafy veges, tomatoes, capsicum, carrots, etc. You can use the water on any sort of plant just don't get it on the parts you plan on eating. I used to water my lawn with water from the tank.

Mycobacteria can live for months or even years in the soil so just because it's in full sunlight for a few days, doesn't mean it's dead. A fish health vet I was working with back around the start of this century had found Fish TB under rocks in dry river beds and they had been dry for 8 years. So this genus of bacteria is incredibly tough.

Mycobacteria are also responsible for TB in birds, reptiles and mammals. People get a number of types including lung TB, leprosy and there is a white tail spider that has a species of Mycobacteria on its fangs, and when it bites you, you get a flesh eating bacteria dissolving the tissue around the bite site.

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The fact the fish was still eating even though it was bloated up, would suggest it is something else, probably food poisoning caused by something bad it ate, or if it was Fish TB, it didn't do as much damage to the organ it was growing in. However, any fish that is bloated up, has scales sticking out, and is breathing heavily/ rapidly, should be euthanised because the fish is in pain and is probably going to die shortly.

At this stage, just let the tank run. Do regular water changes and gravel cleaning. Clean the filter each month. Feed the fish lots of plant matter. Avoid frozen bloodworms. If more fish start to die from the same symptoms, get them necropsied by a fish vet and find out what the actual cause is. If it does turn out to be Fish TB, you either let the tank run until most or all of the fish die, and then disinfect and start again. Or you euthanise the lot now and disinfect before starting again. But if you euthanise now, you could buy new fish next week and they could have it too.

Adrian Tappin used to breed his fish when they had TB and transfer the eggs to clean containers with clean water. Then as soon as they hatched, he scooped the baby fish out and move them to a clean container with clean water. Apparently he managed to get clean stock by doing that and when he had sufficient numbers of clean fish, he destroyed the old infected fish, disinfected the tank and started again.
 
First off, it isn't the OPs fault. Rainbowfish all around the world die from Fish TB and it's caused by TB coming out of Asian fish farms, and because rainbowfish were never exposed to it. Rainbowfish have only been around for about 10,000 years and Fish TB (Mycobacteria species) have been around since the dawn of time. They are really old species of bacteria that have evolved ways of avoiding the immune system and surviving in places most other bacteria die. They produce a waxy coating around their cell and this protects them from the elements, medications, and the body's immune system.

Mycobacteria have been in European, Asian, African and American waterways for hundreds of millions of years. The fish in those areas have evolved alongside the Mycobacteria and even though they still catch it, they don't die as quickly from it. Because rainbowfish have never evolved with it (Fish TB is not found in wild fish in Australia or New Guinea), they have no way of dealing with it. So when rainbowfish are kept in aquariums with barbs, tetras, gouramis, etc, they pick up these new diseases and die from them. Many rainbowfish breeders also have the disease in their tanks and don't always know, and they spread the disease with fish they sell.

-------------------

Dumping used aquarium water on the lawn or garden is fine but do not use it on fruit/ vegetables or plants you eat. Avoid getting it on things like green leafy veges, tomatoes, capsicum, carrots, etc. You can use the water on any sort of plant just don't get it on the parts you plan on eating. I used to water my lawn with water from the tank.

Mycobacteria can live for months or even years in the soil so just because it's in full sunlight for a few days, doesn't mean it's dead. A fish health vet I was working with back around the start of this century had found Fish TB under rocks in dry river beds and they had been dry for 8 years. So this genus of bacteria is incredibly tough.

Mycobacteria are also responsible for TB in birds, reptiles and mammals. People get a number of types including lung TB, leprosy and there is a white tail spider that has a species of Mycobacteria on its fangs, and when it bites you, you get a flesh eating bacteria dissolving the tissue around the bite site.

-------------------

The fact the fish was still eating even though it was bloated up, would suggest it is something else, probably food poisoning caused by something bad it ate, or if it was Fish TB, it didn't do as much damage to the organ it was growing in. However, any fish that is bloated up, has scales sticking out, and is breathing heavily/ rapidly, should be euthanised because the fish is in pain and is probably going to die shortly.

At this stage, just let the tank run. Do regular water changes and gravel cleaning. Clean the filter each month. Feed the fish lots of plant matter. Avoid frozen bloodworms. If more fish start to die from the same symptoms, get them necropsied by a fish vet and find out what the actual cause is. If it does turn out to be Fish TB, you either let the tank run until most or all of the fish die, and then disinfect and start again. Or you euthanise the lot now and disinfect before starting again. But if you euthanise now, you could buy new fish next week and they could have it too.

Adrian Tappin used to breed his fish when they had TB and transfer the eggs to clean containers with clean water. Then as soon as they hatched, he scooped the baby fish out and move them to a clean container with clean water. Apparently he managed to get clean stock by doing that and when he had sufficient numbers of clean fish, he destroyed the old infected fish, disinfected the tank and started again.
Thanks for this Colin, I really appreciate it. Having slept on the situation I'm feeling less negative and miserable about it, it is what it is and I'll just deal with it day by day. I must say though, although it's a slim chance I can catch it, I'm afraid to put my hands in rhe tank 🤦‍♀️ I have 2 kiddies as well, they don't go in the tank but they do mess with the hoses and nets on occasion.

We don't grow veggies but I do have an apple sapling that I've watered with tank water...there's no fruit on it as its still a baby but would the fruit be safe to eat eventually? I'm sorry, I'm really stupid when it comes to common sense, ADHD brain doesn't always see the point or bigger picture.

Looking in the tank this morning, no bloating but 2 praecox have stringy white poop. The Boesemani are loving life and flirting like mad.

I spoke to the manager at the shop where I bought the fish, he was very shocked when I explained what was going on and said he'd be keeping a close eye on his stock, no one else had phoned up or visited him with concerns around TB. I told him that I wouldn't have known if it wasn't for a friend of mine being an expert (thanks Colin) and told him what to look out for....the last lot of Praecox I bought from him last year or whenever it was, I'd say half of those died in a mystery way after a couple of months and I wondered then if it was sinister. I do have Cherry Barbs in here, I bought more to make up numbers when I bought the Praecox recently....and I did have one of my old Cherry's bloat up with what looked like an internal bleed which made me think internal bacteria. I never thought of TB though.
 
Your apples will be fine. The Mycobacteria don't go through plants and can't get into the fruit. The only way you could be infected from apples is if they get aquarium water poured over the fruit, or if they drop on the ground and pick up Mycobacteria cells from the ground. If they fall on the ground, wash them 3 times with soapy water and they will be fine.

If your children are young and play in the garden, keep them out of the area where you pour the used aquarium water. If they are playing in the area and cut themselves, they could (very slight chance) catch Mycobacteria from the soil. But it would be a very small chance. The most common way of catching it is through open wounds being exposed to contaminated aquarium water when people put their hands in the tank.

As long as you and everyone else washes their hands with warm soapy water after handling fish related equipment, there is virtually no way you will catch it. I had Fish TB in my tanks for years and never washed my hands until I finished cleaning the fish room (8-12 hours later). I used to eat food, scratch myself, etc, with aquarium water on my hands and arms and I never caught it.

Generally the people that catch Fish TB are old, very young, or have major health issues and a weakened immune system (cancer patients, people with heart problems, diabetes, etc). For the average person with normal to good health, unless you have open wounds and don't wash up after working in the tank, you should never catch it.

I know 2 people that have caught it and both worked in the same pet shop, which also imported thousands of fish every month. Both people handled glass every day and had cuts on their hands. The shop did have Fish TB in most of the tanks. There were dozens of workers at this shop and only 2 of them ever caught it and they got it years apart. There was more than 10 years between when the first guy caught it and the second guy got it.

The disease is out there and it's common and becoming much more common, but as long as you don't put open wounds in contaminated water, and you wash up after working in the tank, you should never get it.

The reason I always mention catching Fish TB when we talk about the subject, is just in case someone does get a granuloma and then they can have a heads up when they go to their doctor.

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Re: the fish with white poop, treat the tank for worms and see if it fixes the problem. section 3 of the following link has info on treating fish for intestinal worms.
 
something the Texas sun won't kill. thank you very much for the information Colin. The more disease I see the more I back out of fishkeeping to be honest. I used to keep rainbowfish. I had no idea they carried TB. I'm washing my hands of new fish purchases for a while.
 
something the Texas sun won't kill. thank you very much for the information Colin. The more disease I see the more I back out of fishkeeping to be honest. I used to keep rainbowfish. I had no idea they carried TB. I'm washing my hands of new fish purchases for a while.
Sunlight can kill it but it takes a long time to cook Mycobacteria under sunlight. If it gets to 60C, that will kill it in seconds and 50C will kill it in 30 minutes. So if the ground gets hot enough, then the Mycobacteria will die. But at temperatures of 30C, it will sit there and go "Hi, nice weather we're having".

Not all rainbowfish carry it. It comes down to where the fish came from and if they have been infected with it. If they haven't been infected, they are fine and won't get it unless they are exposed to the bacteria. So if you can find a clean supplier, then you can get clean fish. Unfortunately the disease is in most pet shops, importers and suppliers and you can't tell whether a fish has it unless you kill the fish and look inside. It's just a lottery, you might get clean fish or they might be contaminated. But the disease is found in all fresh and saltwater fish, so anyone who keeps fish, needs to be aware that it's out there.
 
Its so rough with Rainbows in this situation its getting very common especially in the UK at the moment it seems... 3 cases on this forum at the moment and I've seen it on other groups too. Interestingly the spike in cases could be to do with all the border changes with Europe - less fish coming from Germany, Netherlands and Eastern Europe as its now more expensive and more people using the South East Asian farms because those routes have not changed.

@Colin_T do you think a UV steriliser could help the Captain with prolonging the life of her fish and preventing a bit of spread? It was one of the things I was thinking of doing when I was looking at Rainbows - something quite powerful from the marine side of the hobby like the Evolution Aqua models.

Wills
 
I was thinking the same thing about the UV steriliser...I know that keeping on top of maintenance and big water changes will keep pathogen numbers down but I have to be realistic with myself. I struggle with my mental health and you know, life sometimes gets in the way of good intentions and practice
 
I was thinking the same thing about the UV steriliser...I know that keeping on top of maintenance and big water changes will keep pathogen numbers down but I have to be realistic with myself. I struggle with my mental health and you know, life sometimes gets in the way of good intentions and practice
100% know what you mean. I don't think anyone can really commit to any kind of maintenance 100% of the time. Interested to see what Colin says on the steriliser but I do think that it could be an effective way of achieving a level of control.
 
100% know what you mean. I don't think anyone can really commit to any kind of maintenance 100% of the time. Interested to see what Colin says on the steriliser but I do think that it could be an effective way of achieving a level of control.
I've seen on other threads that he's old school and says not to waste money on the equipment...I wonder if it will even be worth the trouble because it won't get rid of TB. But being able to protect the immune systems from other nasties may help slow down the inevitable
 

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