Smudgers First Tank

[smudger123]

Hi Waterdrop,

Things a bit more 'ordered' in the tank today. They are very lively and the males have set up their territories - two at opposite ends of the tank. I think I may have more males than I previously thought - now that there is constant territorial fighting I can see some of the "females" flaring up in a similar way to males. Not sure on that one yet.

I'm afraid at the moment I despise these little fish - all I can see in their personality is aggression at the moment. The males are patrolling their turf and ferociusly chase down any invaders with nips. Sometimes the largest male will leave his area and hunt down the other male to have a 'display' than nipping frenzy. The girls are no better, they are in the middle of the tank beacuse the males wont let them in the planted areas and if any of them get within a cm or so of eachother they nip at tails and fins.

Very tense in there, I don’t like to watch really because it can get quite vicious and sand goes flying - usually the two very small females are the targets I also hate the way the chase is relentless- its not nipping as a warning, once one has decided to go for another it will relentlessly chase it down for an attack, sometimes going around the whole tank several times. This is not what I wanted!!

Very VERY angry with myself for choosing fish I hadnt done proper research on - had I looked at any collection of 'comments' from fishkeepers I would have seen these were not the fish for me. My partner rang the lfs with my concerns, they said don’t usually take them back for an exchange, even if I pay for what I replace them with. Unfair in my opinion seeing as they have a room full of quarantine tanks.

Are all fish like this at first? I have no point of reference so perhaps i'm over reacting? I hope so

 

[waterdrop]

Hi smudger,

I was about to write that I just have no familiarity with this species, but I thought I'd take a glance at the google images of it out of curiosity and right away I was surprised and found myself wondering about this fish. I used to, years ago, have quite a number of "black tetras", which was all we called them if I'm remembering correctly (which is questionable!) but which are now called "black skirt tetras." In fact there seem to be both plain "black skirt tetras" and long-finned "black skirt tetras" now (which is not surprising because they seem to have bred long finned varieties of almost everything in the last 20 or so years, sheesh!) Anyway, this "black phantom tetra" sure as heck looks a lot like a color variation on the "black skirt tetra".

[would greatly appreciate any experienced members jumping in here if they know the breeding history of these guys...]

If the black phantom tetras are indeed related to the old "black tetra" or recent "black skirt tetra", then, at least for me, that would explain things because I remember those black tetras as being "mean little b*****s" or at least needing to be put in a community of bigger fish where they were the smaller ones.. something like that. Kinda also makes me wonder how closely they are related to Serpae, who are pretty hard-core fin nippers.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Corleone]

They do look a lot alike, but they're from different genera. Black phantoms are Hyphessobrycon megalopterus, which puts them in the same genus as serpaes. Black/white skirt/widow tetras are Gymnocorymbus ternetzi. Black skirts can be nippy (though mine have never caused problems), but phantoms can be downright mean, and the males are territorial.

They won't hurt each other, their behavior's similar to tiger barbs (though I don't think the latter is territorial). Chances are they'll settle down once the pecking order is established. Don't put any angelfish or gouramis in there, or they may take the worst of it, but stick to nimble fish without large fins and you'll have a very active tank.

 

[smudger123]

We have had enough now, these fishies are meeeaan! I would be very surprised if the littlest female makes it through the night, poor thing isnt looking well. My main problem with them is the way they are aggressive; if one enters a territory or gets too close it will be nipped, ok I can make my peace with that. The thing I hate is if the invading fish dodges the nip it is chased round and round the tank and attacked really violently. Its also not pleasant that they cant be within an inch of eachother without attacking.

I rang the lfs earlier and explained what was happening, none of them could believe what I was saying because they hadn't seen it before. I assured them they were anything but peaceful and was told the manager would ring me back in a couple of hours. We waited all day without a phone call so my partner rang 10 minutes before closing. He was told they weren't aggressive in his experience and ‘fish aren’t like you see in the Disney movies’. He did agree to take them back tomorrow morning thank goodness but they won’t exchange them for something suitable or give a refund – a bit mean when the shop will resell them. Well, they've lost us as customers, I had planned to stock my 125 and 240 with them but I feel very irritated they cant in good faith give us some money off the replacements and patronised by their unrelenting insistence phantoms aren’t aggressive. Its all a bit sad really because I was hoping for a good rapport with them

 

[waterdrop]

Corleone, thanks for all the good info, very interesting! ~~wd~~

Smudger.. hate that this is happening to such a dedicated fishless cycler and good poster here, but you will get it all worked out in the long run.. we'll keep tuning in for the story.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[Miss Wiggle]

oh what a shame smudger, unfortunately i'm sure you've all heard us moan on about lfs's, sometimes they can be pretty rubbish with stuff like this. Hope you get it sorted out and get something suitable for the tank in the near future.

as tyou say, vote with your wallet and shop somewhere else.

 

[Corleone]

The advice they gave on the tetras is pretty normal. At some point, "tetra" came to mean "peaceful." Black phantoms are rough, but there's more aggressive tetras out there. I can see where the guy's coming from - he probably has to give information on request for a couple hundred different fish, so he hears "tetra" and attaches the same canned response to them all.

It could be worse - I watched a family take four exadons home to live with their angelfish the other day. "Oh, yeah, they're tetras, perfectly harmless." One of my species books also mentions a tetra that has aggression and territorial behavior comparable more to cichlids than tetras.

It's a love-hate thing. If it weren't for the fact that they're the only places to buy fish, I'd never shop at most I've had experience with. The best way to handle it is to do all your research through hobbyist sources. When you go to the store, walk in, look around, tell the person, "I want x# of that fish," pay and leave. Even casual conversation has a way of going sour (I do recommend it, nonetheless - making friends with the employees is a good way to get the inside track). One fish store won't honor their store guarantee for me anymore because they found out I have keyhole cichlids in my community, and "cichlid" means "kills everything and voids guarantees."

 

[Miss Wiggle]

we're relatively lucky that there are some top notch fish shops around here, there's a lot of terrible ones that i won't even set foot inside but we have maybe 3/4 which are pretty good. even with those there's generally only 1/2 employee's in each who I'd trust and a few others who I wouldn't bother with their advice.

But yeah, in general terms I know what I want before I go in and don't ask very much, yes if i spot something unusual that i'm not familiar with but catches my eye I'll ask about it but they'll generally reserve something for me if I want to go home and look it up, or worst comes to the worst I can get google on my phone!!

 

[smudger123]

I have had the BEST day!!!!

We bagged the phantoms this morning and took them back to the store. I didnt feel the slightest bit of regret or doubt my decision, the littlest females and the smaller male were covered in wounds. Every single one of those fish were vicious little bullies. I did notice something very interesting about the phantoms though this morning; when we came to bag them I realised my cat had chewed the corner and my partner had to pop and get new fish bags from the small petshop in the local town. Because I was bagging them I had taken my lights off the top and placed them on end next to the tank. The tank had a glow to it from the lights a few feet away and the most amazing thing happened - they started behaving! They were shoaling and getting very close to each other and the two males were 'dancing' for the females. I watched for a good 20 minutes and only saw two nips. I'm wondering then If the lights had caused such awful behaviour in them? By this time I hated them so much I just wanted them gone, I was in no mood to experiment with lighting for a few days!

Anyway, the cherries are completely different to the phantoms and absolutely GORGEOUS! They showed no timid behaviour and began exploring the tank straight away. The larger male Casper had 4 adoring ladies and the smaller one Ike had 2. I love how inquisitive they are, the ladies have had a dig in the sand, a swim in the cave and even a nibble on a snail If a male goes into the cabomba forest a female goes and has a look to see what hes doing, its so cute! They also play in the airstone bubbles and ride the powerhead current - basically interacting with the tank and enjoying it, something the phantoms didnt do.

I watched them for 3 hours and didn't see a single nip, even my cats love watching them!

They are settled now and have had some blood worm and a crumbled flake which they loved. I can see the behaviour is settling now as well and the cherries pecking order has begun, although its nothing like the phantoms. The ladies are in the middle making themselves busy and the males have started to 'notice them' if you know what I mean ! They usually just swim through them checking out the babes and occasionally chase one around. Again though nothing like the phantoms, its much more relaxed and not relentless. Sometimes when the males are together they do a 'dance' around each other and one chases the other away - he's soon back though! Interestingly the little one Ike wins these show offs as much as Casper who’s a little bigger. Ike is also more 'chasey' with the ladies but they follow Casper more, its fascinating to watch.

I realise now that the phantoms are not the type of fish I can comfortably watch and enjoy - and perhaps tetras in gereral are not my cup of tea. Certainly flicking through my tropical fish book whenever I see a fish the same shape as the phantoms such as lemons or x rays I go grrr! My poor snails can get a break now too - the phantoms kept charging at them and tearing them to bits or crushing their shells. Yesterday there were no snails on the sides which is very unusual because there normally at least 10 or so. The cherrys make me giggle with the snails, the ladies always stop to have a look when they swim by lol! Even the little nibble was so gentle the snail just went about its day..

I'm so happy tonight!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yay!!

dead chuffed for you smudger

 

[smudger123]

Aw thanks Miss Wiggle, evil phantoms lol!

Ive noticed a little dance going on between the little male and one of the females in the cabomba. Comparing her to the rest shes very bloated and I think she might be full of eggs. I hope there's nothing wrong with her, what do you rekon?..

She has much darker colouration than the other ladies and seems to have an extra stripy bit although its hard to see on the pic. If she has got eggs what can I expect? Is there any way the babies could survive? (not read about this breeding stuff at all yet!)

 

[smudger123]

My cat ZipZip loves the cherrys....

And it was soon obvious a second viewing platform was needed tehe!.....

 

[smudger123]

My pH was 7.2 but is now 7.4-7.5 ish

What has caused the rise and is it anything to worry about?

 

[waterdrop]

yay!!

dead chuffed for you smudger

Well I'll be, there it is right in the dictionary...

"–adjective British Informal. delighted; pleased; satisfied."

...she's an entire British Informal education

wd

My pH was 7.2 but is now 7.4-7.5 ish

What has caused the rise and is it anything to worry about?

sheesh, you are an observant aquarist...

 

[smudger123]

My tank is one month old!

I bought 4 Amano Shrimp and 4 Sparkling Gouramis today to join the cherrys and they've settled in really well. Gouramis are absolutely beautiful They were having an offer on medication and food so I asked if there was any shrimp safe medication that would be good to have in case of emergency. He suggested something for ich and recommended King British WS3 as it was safe for shrimp. Reading the box now though it doesnt say anywhere it's safe for them- just mentions 1/2 dose for scaleless etc. Was he wrong in suggesting that med?