Smudgers First Tank

[Miss Wiggle]

great reply WD

I know it's frustrating but just try to put it into perspective

I think a lot of people visulaise the cycling process as a great long frustrating road with the eventual goal being the end of the cycle and getting your fish, sometimes when you're on that road and it's stretching out infront of you and one day you feel like you're near the end and turn a corner to see another 10 miles of it stretching on, it's easy to be disheartened!

But think of it this way instead, the road you're on is your whole journey as a fishkeeper, the road will most likely go on all your life and you're not aiming for any one point, but just enjoying the ride and all the different experiences along the way, all you've got to do is get down the first couple of miles of a boring tamaced road and then you'll be out in the coutnryside and your experiences will be all the better and fuller for the comparison of the tarmac road!!

It really is worth that extra few weeks of patience to make sure you're jouirney gets off on the right foot, trust me as someone who'se journey didn't start this way at all!!

 

[smudger123]

Thank you for the words of encouragement WD and MW– I’ll really have to stand my ground on this one I think.

The problem is they are so experienced with tropical tanks and think I’m being really daft – my partner also thinks they’re a little bit offended I won’t do it their way. It didn’t help one bit when we were in the lfs a month or so ago and his grandfather made a point of asking about the fishless cycle. The staff said it was only appropriate if you wanted to add a full load of fish straight away. Apparently most people only add a small amount at first to start and the surplus bacteria you’ve spent weeks creating die off because there’s not enough to sustain them. Every fish you add after that brings on its own mini cycle anyway so overall its overkill for your starter fishies. They instead recommend a few hardy fish with a piece of mature filter media. “I keep telling her that, been keeping tropicals for 34 years but she won’t listen!” The whole experience was AWFUL!!!!! Just don’t know what to say to them and not buying fish on Saturday is going to cause even more tension. It think to them us getting into tropicals is a way to bond with my partner because they're very passionate about it. Me interfering and insisting on things is winding them up - I think they think I should be learning everything from them.

Today has been quite stressful actually, just had the most tedious 2 hours of my life trying to attach the background to my 240 with Sea View. It is absolutely impossible to get all of the bubbles out and after a while I realised it had very little to do with the background – it was the way the stuff was drying. As time went on the little bubbles were harder and harder to move and in the end I had to admit defeat. At the moment it looks truly awful and if the bubbles are still there when it’s dry it’s coming straight back off. Grrr…!

Edit: 2 hours on de-bubbling was much easier - must be because its nearly dry. Looks brill actually, like i've 'filmed' the inside back wall. Things are looking up!

 

[Corleone]

Done right, adding fish won't cause a mini cycle, regardless of which way you cycled. Fishless cycling is, IMO, always appropriate for reasons you're fully aware of so I won't get on my high horse.

But, about the mini-cycle bit. The way I described it to a friend who kept having ammonia problems after I gave him mature media:

Imagine the tank itself is a farm, and the biofilter is the town that eats the food grown. If the farm initially has enough food to feed 30 meals a day, and there's initially only 2 people, there will be excess food (the cycle itself. The town grows, eventually there's 10 people, all eating 3 meals a day and no excess. That's the end of the cycle, but if you add more farmland (fish), there will be excess again.

Left a while longer, though, and there'll be 30 people eating one meal a day - this is what the situation you want. Your bacteria will be getting barely enough ammonia to survive, but it gives you two benefits: First, anything that damages the biofilter like an overzealous cleaning is less likely to kill off enough to cause a mini-cycle, and you can add new fish and the bacteria will be able to cope with the new waste without needing to grow.

 

[smudger123]

That makes complete sense - hopefully if I explain it like that they might understand a bit better.

Im totally comitted to the fishless cycling, I chose to do it that way for my tanks and I'm going to see it through to the end. I know there are going to be a few comments here and there on Saturday but I could not bear putting fish in a tank that is still harmful to them and simply wont do it.

Fishless cycling must be relatively new then? I was in the pet shop a couple of weeks ago and brought it up in coversation - she hadn't even heard of it! I explained the concept to her and she thought it sounded great and offered me a piece of mature filter media. I declined because she had some poorly fish in the tank. Still, why isnt this standard?

My partners grandparents dont own a fishkeeping book or the internet, they go by the lfs advice. I was a little bit sad to see a very nervous lone glass catfish in their tank. When I asked if it need company they insisted not because they do fine alone. I thought, hmmm thats not right! Didn't say anything though and decided to get my advice elsewhere lol

 

[Corleone]

That makes complete sense - hopefully if I explain it like that they might understand a bit better.

Im totally comitted to the fishless cycling, I chose to do it that way for my tanks and I'm going to see it through to the end. I know there are going to be a few comments here and there on Saturday but I could not bear putting fish in a tank that is still harmful to them and simply wont do it.

The real teller will come in a few months - a friend of mine started a tank almost identical to mine around the same time, but he went on fish store advice and never really trusted me. I've now got plants, fish, and invertebrates thriving at every level of the tank, and he's got the same surviving, most of them huddled into groups skittering around the corners of a sparse tank. He figured he'd done just fine until he saw how differently my fish look and behave, despite many being the same species, and a few even from the same bunch at the store.

Fishless cycling must be relatively new then? I was in the pet shop a couple of weeks ago and brought it up in coversation - she hadn't even heard of it! I explained the concept to her and she thought it sounded great and offered me a piece of mature filter media. I declined because she had some poorly fish in the tank. Still, why isnt this standard?

It's not entirely new, but it wasn't widespread. My grandfather heard about using cocktail shrimp many years ago, and even came up with the idea of using an ammonia solvent he used in his shop (it didn't work, probably due to something else in the solvent). The internet is what's spread it, though. Better access and exchange of information has revolutionized this and most hobbies.

My partners grandparents dont own a fishkeeping book or the internet, they go by the lfs advice. I was a little bit sad to see a very nervous lone glass catfish in their tank. When I asked if it need company they insisted not because they do fine alone. I thought, hmmm thats not right! Didn't say anything though and decided to get my advice elsewhere lol

If you persevere through hardships from LFS advice, you'll usually get to a point where the fish will survive. If you've never seen them truly thrive, you might never see how much better it can be. I think you'll get to see that difference, though

 

[smudger123]

I get the feeling research, patience and doing things properly the first time are the golden rules of a happy successful aquarium?

Well my plan is to have a look at the fish tomorrow, i've got my larger 240 to consider now so i'll have great fun looking at the larger fish as well this time. I'll have to buy my stock online when the time comes, going to try tri-mar. £10 postage but then £10+ petrol for a 60mile round trip so no losses there. Hope the fishies will be ok though?

Cycle is baffling this morning, had yesterday never happened it would have made perfect sense to me though:

Day 1 Ammonia Little darker than 4
Day 2 Ammonia 4
Day 3 Ammonia 3.5
Day 4 Ammonia 1.5 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 5
Day 5 Ammonia 0 (4.5 added)
Day 6 Ammonia 0 (5 added) Nitrite 1 Nitrate 10
Day 7 Ammonia 0.25 (forgot to top up) Nitrite 5
Day 8 Ammonia 0 (4.5 added) Nitrite 0
Day 9 (+12) Ammonia 0.25 Nitrite 5
Day 9 (+12) Ammonia 0 (3 added) Nitrite 0
Day 10 (+12) Ammonia 0.15 Nitrite 0.25
Day 10 (+12) Ammonia 0 (3 added) Nitrite 0 Nitrate 10
Day 11 (+12) Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0.25
Day 11 (+12) Ammonia 0 (3 added) Nitrite 0
Day 12 (+12) Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0.1
Day 12 (+12) Ammonia 0 (3 added) Nitrite 0
Day 13 (+12) Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0.1
Day 13 (+12) Ammonia 0 (3 added) Nitrite 0
Day 14 (+12) Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0.75!
Day 14 (+12) Ammonia 0 (3 added) Nitrite 0
Day 15 (+12) Ammonia 0 Nitrite 0 Nitrate 15

Am I adding 5ppm ammonia tonight and waiting for the 0,0 result in 12hrs again?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

I get the feeling research, patience and doing things properly the first time are the golden rules of a happy successful aquarium?

got it in 1!

sounds like you're cycled or very nearly there then.

Just keep going, once you've had the 0,0 results after 12 hrs for 1 week then you're ready for the big water change and adding your fish.

 

[smudger123]

The roads to the lfs were completely flooded - going next week instead!

Another 0,0 12hr reading for 4ppm this time!

Will the water change kill of any bacteria? Also, when will it be fine to change the filter wool? It's pretty clogged up from tiny plant bits.

I keep meaning to ask, when I cycle my 240 (next week hopefully) how do I use my cycled 125 to boost it?

 

[OldMan47]

If I were you, I would take the filter floss that you want to remove, clean it well enough to get the water flow back up but not a "thorough" cleaning and put it right into the new tank's filter with the biomedia. It will contain some of the beneficial bacteria and give the new filter a jump start. After that your fishless cycle should be able to complete in 2 weeks or less but will need close monitoring because things will not go by the book like a normal cycle would.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

water change won't kill the bacteria, they don't live free swimming they cling onto the filter media and other surfaces, so changing the water is just to reduce the build up of nitrates and nay other toxins before you add fish.

filter wool is designed to be replaced every couple of weeks, as you can see it gets all clogged up and manky. It contains some but not a vast amount of the filter bacteria population.

i agree with old man's suggestion pretty much but what i'd do is clean off the filter wool now in a bit of tank water and then stick it back in the filter, then when you set up the new tank next week or whenever then move the wool over and replace it in the new tank.

in a mature tank you can safely remove around one third of the media but the colony in a new tank isn't as quick to reproduce so you can't take as much out.

as old man say's just stick the mature media in the new filter then start adding ammonia as you have with this tank, it'll all just happen much faster (hopefully!!)

 

[smudger123]

Had three 0,0 readings now, tank is definately cycled!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

brilliant

So what are your first fish purchases going to be then?

 

[smudger123]

First fishies are going to be 6 cherry barbs, 2 male and 4 female Can't wait!!!

I'm absolutely furious with Warehouse Aquatics though, they left things out of the order I waited AGES for which means I can't set up my 240- AARRRGGG!!! To make things even more annoying they arn't open on a Monday. If they try any of that 5-7 working days dispatch rubbish on my missing sponges I might go bonkers!

 

[smudger123]

I have fishies!

We went in with the intention of coming out with 6 cherry barbs but instead came away with 12 Black Phantom Tetras after taking a shine to them. I recalled them being on hardy fish lists and was assured by the staff they were peaceful, hardy fish great for community tanks and ideal for beginners - I even flicked through the books to be sure...peaceful and hardy tetra, great for community tanks...everything was fine.

Got them home and they settled in just fine - we appear to have 10 females and 2 males. The problem is a large female however, she is sooooo aggressive!!! Any fish that comes within a few cm of her get nipped and chased. The atmosphere isnt very relaxed at all in there with the smaller ones getting bullied and a fish on a rampage. I was slightly surprised with this behaviour so i looked on loads of websites for info on them. I was shocked by how many people found them to be aggressive in community tanks on forums and websites. Some of them have even been taken back to the shop for terrorising other fish, even corys!!!! This isnt mentioned in most official 'stats' or in my books and I don't understand why!!

Have we just made an awful mistake with these guys? What am I seeing here - a fish with a bad attitude or are they working out the pecking order? Whatever it is I hate it, I wanted to avoid aggression of any kind in my tank because I get so attached to them

 

[waterdrop]

Wow, congrats of first fish!

Don't forget that all fish need to settle into their new surroundings and go through some pecking order behaviours when they are new to a tank. As you are just coming off fishless, what you want to watch (besides continuing your stats) is whether they continue to show better and better colors and have lively behaviour with all fins spread and plenty of frenzy on feeding day.

You may find that the shoal will settle down and develop different behaviour after a while. I'm not saying you won't then find the problem is still there (Serpae are tetras that also often give new owners quite a surprise with how aggressive they turn out to be), but just give it some time. Remember, even if it turns out you have the problem you think you have, you are now gaining direct experience as a tropical fish hobbyist and even the hassles can be fun if you don't let them get to you too much.

~~waterdrop~~