Problem Started Wiith Black Moor, Now All.

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123Sam123

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Less than 3 weeks ago, my fish started gaping at the tp of thee water non stop, all day long. Then the black moor got a white streak of something down by it's nose. I thought it was some kind of output from the moors body, like mucus or otherwise, but now, just 2 weeks later, the moors head is covered in it, and all the other fish too. Whilst in the water, it appears to be white, but out of, it is red and looks blistered. Probably some kind of fungus, but i have had trouble identifying it n the internet. When I got the fish, (4 and a loach) I checked the size of the tank to make sure there was enough room for them all, and sure enough there was. I no longer remember how may litres my tank is, but you can be assured it's big enough (It's over 4ft x 1ft x 1ft) The loach only ever bothered the moor, by chasing it round so I thught it could be stress-related but since the other fish have it too, i doubt it. I clean the filter and do a water change once every week, and I use an external filter. Attached is a picture of each individual fish in a bucket. Another thing to mention is that I have had the tank for almost 8 months, and added a loach after 3 months, and the original black moor died after getting sucked into the old internal filter, so I added another at 4 months. Also,  about 2 months ago, I added a small water snail to the tank. Could the snail be carrying any diseases, parasites, or fast spreading fungus? Please reply ASAP, as I will get any treatment required soon. Also, the scales on the Pearl scale look inflamed, is this a result of oedema (dropsy disease)? If you require more photos just ask. WIN_20160722_11_02_44_Pro.jpg
WIN_20160722_11_02_43_Pro.jpg
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Thanks, Sam
 
 
Photo taken from Logitech pro C1080 webcam.
 
Water Temp is 27.37 C
 
The other fish (see below)
 
 
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WIN_20160722_12_34_17_Pro (2).jpg
 
 
P.S. Why does my snail float around a bit, then drop back down?
 

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Cleaned today, bad smells of ammonia, so bad it smells like human feces. Also, waste food on floor which is unusual as it is normally all consumed. Water also smells of feces.
 
First, 4x1x1 is a strange dimension for a tank. Are you sure those values are accurate?


Next, if they are accurate, you don't have enough space for that many goldfish. Goldfish should be kept in 20 gallons for the first and an additional 10 for each extra.


If the water smells of ammonia, you can feel pretty confident that is your problem. Test your water. Ammonia should be zero, as should nitrite. My guess is that both are far too high and you are dealing with secondary issues because of the ammonia.


We'd love to know more about your maintenance routine, the full water stats, and anything else you could share, but if I had to guess, this all stems from ammonia poisoning.
 
@eaglesaquarium
 
Thanks, I can get the stats by this evening.
I clean my tank once every week, usually on a Sunday, unless there are reasons why it should be done earlier. I wash my filter compelety every week, and perform a 30% water change. I wipe down glass and ensure that the gravel is cleaned. Recently I noticed a build up of green-blue algae instead of the usual brown I get, so I followed procedures on the internet to remove it. Is there anything in particular I should be doing? Also, I do a 100% water change and thoroughly wash the gravel every 3-4 months, depending on my schedule. What other things should I be doing to prevent ammonia build up? My filter is the Marina CF 40, Should be big enough for my tank. My tank is actually closer to 3.5ft x 1ft x 1.5ft, but I don't know exactly. I can get the correct dimensions later. Another thing I don't understand is, if this is due to ammonia levels, why has it just started to become bad, despite the fact that I haven't changed my routine? And what would ammonia poisoning have to do with the white fleshy lumps on the fishes heads? I have isolated the pearl scale, as it is the only one with the red marks on its head, and also performed a full clean. Is there anything I should do as well as this?
 
Thanks, Sam
 
Can you describe, exactly, how you clean your filter? what procedures to get rid of the algae did you do?
 
Raised ammonia levels don't just cause immediate problems, like burns or gasping for oxygen. A constant, even low level, amount of ammonia or nitrite gradually weakens the fish and its immune system, which leaves it open to secondary infections, like fungus and whitespot. That's probably why you're seeing the problems only now, but they've almost certainly been building up over a length of time.
 
eaglesaquarium said:
First, 4x1x1 is a strange dimension for a tank. Are you sure those values are accurate?
Here's a picture of my tank  as it is right now, (just about to do water change, I also stirred the gravel a bit to see how much grime is stuck between it) I can't find a tape measure, but I'm doing my best to find it. Also whatever the white lumps are, they seem to be eroding one of the fishes skin, as it used to have a continued black line. What treatment should I use?
123Sam123 said:
 
First, 4x1x1 is a strange dimension for a tank. Are you sure those values are accurate?
Here's a picture of my tank  as it is right now, (just about to do water change, I also stirred the gravel a bit to see how much grime is stuck between it) I can't find a tape measure, but I'm doing my best to find it. Also whatever the white lumps are, they seem to be eroding one of the fishes skin, as it used to have a continued black line. What treatment should I use?
Sorry, I forgot to add the pictures, here they are
 
WIN_20160722_13_43_50_Pro.jpg
 
WIN_20160722_13_43_50_Pro.jpg
@fluttermoth
Very simply, I remove the lid, Remove  each basket, Tip away water, Remove the filter sponges, clean filter sponges, put them back in, put baskets back in, remove impellor, wash impellor, put impellor back in, put lid on, take to tank, fill up with water, connect to pipes, turn on filter.
 
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WIN_20160722_13_51_55_Pro.jpg

Just cleaning the filter now.

The exact dimensions of the tank, are smaller than I thought and are 3ft x 1ft x 15.25 inches. How big should my tank be?
 

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If you have 4 goldfish, it should be 50 gallons - that would be a 4 foot tank x 12 x 20.  
 
Goldfish are extremely dirty fish (lovely though).  They can build up waste quickly.
 
 
 
Please give more details into the exact 'washing' of the filter media.  This seems to be the issue.  
 
 
Your tank has been established for quite some time, but you might be doing TOO MUCH cleaning.  It seems that you are fastidiously cleaning everything, but in so doing, you are destroying any bacteria colony (yup, you need a colony of bacteria) that could grow to deal with the ammonia.  Ammonia is dealt with in the home aquarium by a colony of beneficial bacteria commonly referred to as 'oxidizers'.  These bacteria convert the NH3/NH4 (ammonia/ammonium) in your aquarium to NO2 (nitrite). Nitrite is ALSO poisonous to fish and restricts the fish's ability to get oxygen into their bloodstream, as the nitrite fills in that role... this asphyxiates the fish (which can lead to them gasping at the surface for oxygen).  Another group of oxidizing bacteria converts the NO2 into NO3 (nitrate).  The nitrate is far LESS dangerous to the fish (though it is still a danger in high enough quantities), which is why we do the water changes (among other reasons).  The water changes is the best and easiest way to eliminate the nitrate and other by products that would build up in the tank over time.  
 
 
All sorts of secondary infections can attack fish when they are dealing with ammonia or nitrite poisoning.  In those cases, the fish's immune system is compromised and they can get sick.  This happens to humans as well.  When the immune system is compromised, lots of secondary infections can attack the body.  
 
So... step 1 to help your fish - Lots and Lots of FRESH WATER.  Its hard to tell from the description you've provided, but your fish may be dealing with columnaris.  Read through this and see if it matches your fish: http://www.blueridgekoi.com/columnaris-diagnosis-treatment-2/
 
123Sam123 said:
Water Temp is 27.37 C
 
Goldfish are coldwater fish and do not require a heater. Room temperature, around 20 degrees Celcius would be more appropriate.
 
In the summer, that could be room temp.  
 
eaglesaquarium said:
In the summer, that could be room temp.  
 Ah, I suppose farther south it might well be.
smile.png
I would personally be looking to cool that tank/room down a bit along with sorting the points brought up above.
 
eaglesaquarium said:
If you have 4 goldfish, it should be 50 gallons - that would be a 4 foot tank x 12 x 20.  
 
Goldfish are extremely dirty fish (lovely though).  They can build up waste quickly.
 
 
 
Please give more details into the exact 'washing' of the filter media.  This seems to be the issue.  
 
 
Your tank has been established for quite some time, but you might be doing TOO MUCH cleaning.  It seems that you are fastidiously cleaning everything, but in so doing, you are destroying any bacteria colony (yup, you need a colony of bacteria) that could grow to deal with the ammonia.  Ammonia is dealt with in the home aquarium by a colony of beneficial bacteria commonly referred to as 'oxidizers'.  These bacteria convert the NH3/NH4 (ammonia/ammonium) in your aquarium to NO2 (nitrite). Nitrite is ALSO poisonous to fish and restricts the fish's ability to get oxygen into their bloodstream, as the nitrite fills in that role... this asphyxiates the fish (which can lead to them gasping at the surface for oxygen).  Another group of oxidizing bacteria converts the NO2 into NO3 (nitrate).  The nitrate is far LESS dangerous to the fish (though it is still a danger in high enough quantities), which is why we do the water changes (among other reasons).  The water changes is the best and easiest way to eliminate the nitrate and other by products that would build up in the tank over time.  
 
 
All sorts of secondary infections can attack fish when they are dealing with ammonia or nitrite poisoning.  In those cases, the fish's immune system is compromised and they can get sick.  This happens to humans as well.  When the immune system is compromised, lots of secondary infections can attack the body.  
 
So... step 1 to help your fish - Lots and Lots of FRESH WATER.  Its hard to tell from the description you've provided, but your fish may be dealing with columnaris.  Read through this and see if it matches your fish: http://www.blueridgekoi.com/columnaris-diagnosis-treatment-2/
 
@eaglesaquarium
 
Thanks a lot for helping, soon I can give exact Ph and ammonia levels. When cleaning the standard foam, I literally just get maybe 4-5 jugs of aquarium water and pour it over the foam. I also rub it with my fingers to get rid of remaining muck. With the carbon media I do the same, but with more jugs of water. I replace the carbon media every 2-3 weeks, and the standard foam every 1-2 weeks. I don't clean the bio media, as instructed by the CF40 manual (Obviously to keep the good bacteria intact).
Do you have any idea why my water snail floats around a lot, or why my loach plays dead for ages, floating at the top, then sinking back down?
 
Also I isolated the pearl scale, and are going to buy a Interpet Mini PF Internal filter for it. I have got some FLUVAL treatment to reduce chlorine/ammonia/nitrite levels in the water. Is there anything else I should be adding to the water?
 
Thanks again, Sam
I live in England, down South, if that is any help.
 
ginaekdal said:
 
In the summer, that could be room temp.  
 Ah, I suppose farther south it might well be.
smile.png
I would personally be looking to cool that tank/room down a bit along with sorting the points brought up above.
 
How can I reduce the tank temperature, without making radical changes?
 
eaglesaquarium said:
In the summer, that could be room temp.  
 
 
Just to say for any non-UK residents that the UK is going through a heatwave at the moment, and earlier this week the south of England had near record temperatures of over 30 deg C.
 
There's a lot here, so I'll try to take it a piece at a time.
 
123Sam123 said:
Thanks a lot for helping, soon I can give exact Ph and ammonia levels. When cleaning the standard foam, I literally just get maybe 4-5 jugs of aquarium water and pour it over the foam. I also rub it with my fingers to get rid of remaining muck. With the carbon media I do the same, but with more jugs of water. I replace the carbon media every 2-3 weeks, and the standard foam every 1-2 weeks. I don't clean the bio media, as instructed by the CF40 manual (Obviously to keep the good bacteria intact).
 
Glad to hear you aren't changing out everything in your filter each water change and that you are using aquarium water.  This relieves my biggest concern that you were causing the tank to cycle and recycle constantly.  The bio media will hold a fair amount of bacteria, but it won't hold ALL of it.  So, every time you are removing the sponges, foam, carbon, etc. you are removing bacteria from your tank.  It is best to replace this ONLY when the material is literally falling apart.  If this is in good shape, there's no need to replace it.  A good rinse is all that would be necessary.
 
Carbon itself is NOT required in the filter full-time.  It is great for removing unwanted chemicals from the tank (like after a course of medication is used), but is definitely not something worth the expense of replacing constantly!  Just add some extra sponge, foam or 'bio' media.  Keep a supply of carbon on hand for emergency use after a course of medication, but I'd recommend using it ONLY for that. 
 
 
You had mentioned the gravel didn't usually get a vacuum as the food didn't lay there, but the fish ate it all.  This is a bad habit, I'm sorry to say.  As I mentioned before, goldies are messy fish (lovely, but messy) and produce a LOT of waste.  At higher temps they produce even more.  This waste (poo!) needs to be removed as it is a source of extra ammonia in your tank.  
 
 
25% water changes weekly in an overstocked tank just isn't enough, and you are likely dealing with excessively high nitrates if not actually dealing with ammonia.  The high nitrates ALSO cause problems with the long term health of your fish, which again could be an indication of why you haven't seen these problems much in the past.  And the longer the fish are in the tank, the more waste products build up in the bottom of the gravel.  The very bottom of the gravel is likely a disgusting mess that you'd be shocked to see.  
 
 
123Sam123 said:
Do you have any idea why my water snail floats around a lot, or why my loach plays dead for ages, floating at the top, then sinking back down?
 
Also I isolated the pearl scale, and are going to buy a Interpet Mini PF Internal filter for it. I have got some FLUVAL treatment to reduce chlorine/ammonia/nitrite levels in the water. Is there anything else I should be adding to the water?
 
Thanks again, Sam
 
No clue about the snail or loach behavior.   There's generally no need to add much of anything to the water other than a quality dechlorinator.   

 
123Sam123 said:
How can I reduce the tank temperature, without making radical changes?
 
There are multiple ways:
  • Open the lid of the tank (if practical, some fish are jumpers) and have a fan blow over the surface. ¬†The increased evaporation will lower the temp.
  • Water change. ¬†Add water at a slightly lower temp (slowly) to the tank and the overall temp will drop.
  • Ice water bottles. ¬†Float a few water bottles that have been stored in the freezer for a while. ¬†This will slowly lower the temp of the tank as the ice melts, and the bottle will safely allow you to use ANY kind of liquid, though aquarium water is safest!
123Sam123 said:
Is there any particular treatment I need?
 
Until we know for certain if it is or isn't columnaris, the only treatment I'd recommend is LOTS of fresh water.  Its actually amazing how much fish can overcome on their own when their water is clean.  Their immune systems are pretty good.  And until we know what the actual water stats are... water changes and lots of them is the best course of action at this time. 
 
This will serve multiple purposes:
1 - This will lower the temperature, as water from the tap should be closer to ground water temps than the water in the tank. 
2 - This will lower ammonia, nitrite, nitrate or whatever else is in too high a concentration in the tank.
3 - This will provide clean water to give the fish a chance to deal with the problem themselves.
 
 
An option that you certainly could use on the fish with the lesion until you get a better ID on the exact problem would also be a 'fish dip/salt bath'.  I'll link a resource to go over how to do that.  If the problem is columnaris, fungus, or just about any type of external parasite, this will help, as it is often recommended as a supplement for medical treatments.  This should ONLY ever be done with fish that can tolerate salt!!!
 
http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2009/07/fish-baths.html  This is a great resource.  BTW, goldfish CAN tolerate salt, so you don't need to worry about that.  Just be VERY watchful for the first one.  You could do up to two or three of these each day, as the fish tolerates.  IF the fish EVER turns sideways, return it to the main tank IMMEDIATELY!
 

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