On A Lfs Mission

Dorkhedeos

Boss Major
Joined
Dec 1, 2003
Messages
2,896
Reaction score
0
Location
San Francisco/San Jose, CA
Look, this is a freakin hobby. You dont judge shops from their knowledge, you judge them for their stock and prices. If you have ever worked at a fish shop, you know that trying to explain a fishless cycle to an average joe is a waste of time(money). They dont really care what happens, as long as their fish survive. If they even mention anything about having a light stock for the first few weeks, they already pass the test for basic knowledge. IMO, most people who get into fish arent hobbyists, they dont care about the science behind things. They only care that their fish dont die. Once you tell them the basics, they are on their own. It is up to them to do research themselves or ask more questions. It isnt the fish stores responsibility to cram information down their throat.

You dont see car dealers explaining what a oil change does for the engine or how engines work. They tell you what to do to keep your car alive. Same with fish, dont argue with me that fish are living animals because I realize that. They tell you what to do to keep your fish alive, and if you follow their instructions, newbies will be fine. There are exceptions like the wrong advice fish stores, which is why I said they should be considered decent shops as long as they give out a vague description and instructions for a cycle.
 

LauraFrog

Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2007
Messages
2,372
Reaction score
0
Location
Queensland, Australia
If I get flamed for this, I'm asking for it, but here's a little rant.

You own an LFS. Jo Blo walks in, says he just set up a fish tank and has no clue that you even have to cycle it. He expects to walk out that day with a dozen plastic bags, containing about three times the number of fish that will even fit in his tank. He works long hours, he's got two young kids, and he thinks his family would like a tank in the lounge room.

Your options:
1.) You read him the riot act. "You cannot fit that many fish in your tank for a start. You also have to cycle it first. This means messing around for at least three or four weeks, adding chemicals to the tank and using several different test kits daily. Then you have to stock it slowly. By the way, the whole process is expensive."
His likely response: This is too much work, I'll not bother setting up the tank. OR: walks into the junky LFS down the road, gets the same ol same ol 'let it run for a week then put in whatever'. Decides you're a quack, stocks it, kills loads of fish, gives up, sells the tank.
In the end, you lose the sale.

2.) You give him crap advice, tell him he can add whatever he likes whenever, the usual. You know, tell him he can fit three times more fish in the tank than he was planning and what's more he can have a few oscars if he wants, they're really pretty.
His likely response: Oh great. Buys loads of fish. Takes them home. Kills them. Does this a few times then decides he sucks at keeping fish and gives up.
In the end, you lose a customer after swindling him out of several hundred dollars.

3.) You explain that his tank would be overstocked, and that he needs to cycle it first. You tell him to add bacteria in a bottle then start with danios or platies and stock slowly. He's a little disappointed, but he agrees. Most of the fish survive the cycle. He keeps coming back for fish food and to replace the odd fish.
In the end, you have a happy customer who keeps on coming back.


The majority of LFS owners are going to choose option 3, because the fact is that if you do explain and strongly recommend something as complicated and time consuming as fishless cycling from the outset, customers will go to the shop where the employees tell them what they want to hear. IMO, it's better for the welfare of the fish if everybody does option 3. If you don't give them crap advice, they'll be so put off they'll go somewhere else and kill someone else's fish.

Go ahead and flame me because I don't like what I just wrote. But I've been forced to accept that it's largely true. I will do my best to simplify fishless cycling into a flyer that is attractive and that people will read and seriously consider. In fact, I think I'll condense cycling into a flyer, full stop, and let them choose the best method. I'll put the bad advice on it as well so they're forewarned about what they might be told.
 

tenohfive

Always room for one more tank...
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
2,229
Reaction score
1
Location
Beds, UK
Frankly I think the main problem is that not so long ago, in fish cycling was the norm. We know better now, and the information LFS's are giving to new customers is often outdated - there are better ways to do things. There seem to be two methods advocated - cycle with hardy fish, or just not cycle at all - by a number of LFS's.

Personally I think people should be told the different ways of cycling - or at least pointed in the direction of somewhere that they find out - and let them make a (semi) informed decision. Then the burden of responsibility is on the customer, and I honestly believe that alot of people that cycle with hardy fish (or leave the water overnight and throw in whatever they want) will choose to do a different way. Not everyone will - there will still be people who're impatient - but I think enough will, and as we all know that if you setup your first tank and its successful, you start looking for bigger tanks and different fish - and that has got to be in the best interests of the LFS.



Dorkhedeos, frankly I think you're very wrong. Cars are a bad comparison because everyone knows the basics about how to run a car (theres alot more people out there who've run a car successfully than a fish tank.) The vast majority of people who are new to the hobby know nothing about cycling a tank and turn to the 'experts' to tell them how to setup and run a fish tank successfully. And alot are getting fobbed off with bad advice.
 

Ryan_R

Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Messages
58
Reaction score
0
What you guys need to understand is that the people that use this forum and the internet are people who are very serious about there hobby and take it more indepth. We are less than 1% of the fish keeping population the majority of people who keep fish simply do that keep fish. They do not want to get into fishless cycles, ammonia, test kit (science), nitrogen cycle they just want to keep fish. Now you try explaining to someone who just wants a few small pet fish to increase the ammonia to 7ppm let it drop blah blah blah and there gonna say yeah cheers for that. For this reason fish shops will always reccomend cycling with hardy fish yes people dont agree with it but its been happening alot longer than fishless cycling and people will always do it. So them saying add some small hardy fish and then add more slowly is the best bet.

This really is a key statement. Most people simply don't care about cycling or researching fish. They just want fish, yada, yada, yada. Cycling the tank is just the tip of the iceberg of woe that people will do to fish in their lifetime. Later on, they'll still mix up fish that are incompatible with each other and put too many of them in the same tank, they'll even get fish that don't even fit in their tank (oscars, pacus, etc). Then they'll change the water too infrequently, and change too little of it, and not treat the water to dechlorinate it, etc... so it's likely that the "cycle" will get crashed again and again.

You really need to educate the public more so than the LFS. Perhaps put together a free informational document or pamphlet for new tank owners? Complaining to the pawns at the box store won't get you too far.

-Ryan
 
OP
5teady_2012

5teady_2012

Here to help
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
4,660
Reaction score
0
Location
GB
What you guys need to understand is that the people that use this forum and the internet are people who are very serious about there hobby and take it more indepth. We are less than 1% of the fish keeping population the majority of people who keep fish simply do that keep fish. They do not want to get into fishless cycles, ammonia, test kit (science), nitrogen cycle they just want to keep fish. Now you try explaining to someone who just wants a few small pet fish to increase the ammonia to 7ppm let it drop blah blah blah and there gonna say yeah cheers for that. For this reason fish shops will always reccomend cycling with hardy fish yes people dont agree with it but its been happening alot longer than fishless cycling and people will always do it. So them saying add some small hardy fish and then add more slowly is the best bet.

This really is a key statement. Most people simply don't care about cycling or researching fish. They just want fish, yada, yada, yada. Cycling the tank is just the tip of the iceberg of woe that people will do to fish in their lifetime. Later on, they'll still mix up fish that are incompatible with each other and put too many of them in the same tank, they'll even get fish that don't even fit in their tank (oscars, pacus, etc). Then they'll change the water too infrequently, and change too little of it, and not treat the water to dechlorinate it, etc... so it's likely that the "cycle" will get crashed again and again.

You really need to educate the public more so than the LFS. Perhaps put together a free informational document or pamphlet for new tank owners? Complaining to the pawns at the box store won't get you too far.

-Ryan


whos complaining like?
 

Hawkins

Member
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
1,340
Reaction score
0
Location
United Kingdom
you trick them into thinking you are something your not, then make them feel like even bigger idiots when you lecture them

not really the best way to get what you want
 

aaronnorth

www.ukaps.org
Joined
Dec 9, 2007
Messages
6,822
Reaction score
1
Location
Worksop, Notts, UK
you trick them into thinking you are something your not, then make them feel like even bigger idiots when you lecture them

not really the best way to get what you want
But if he walked in and said here is some information on fishless cycling, they would probobaly just say we already know. They are not going to embarrass themselves in the shop are they ;)

How many sigs do you have axle? Everytime i look it is new lol.
 

tibby25731

Member
Joined
Jan 13, 2008
Messages
1,766
Reaction score
1
Location
Manchester, England
I know what 5teady is doing is not to everyones taste. And I accept that it might not even make much difference. I also agree that most of the poepl who buy fish just don't care about them really. But the thing is, 5teady cares, and he cares enough that he wants to DO something, whether it is a blinding success or a terrible failure. And he is sharing it with us in the belief that we too care about fish, and get angry when they hear LFS employees giving bad advice. And I have always thought that, if you are mad enough about something, then there is no point moaning - you have to go out an DO something about it, whether it is successful or not! So i applaud 5teady for doing what I wish i had the get up and go to do. It is great to share opinions on here, sometimes seeing things from a different point of view can really help. So we should all continue to contribute to this thread, but I don't think anyone should be having a go at 5teady for standing up for what he believes in - whether he is going about it in the way YOU would or not!
 

Axleuk

Member
Joined
Jul 23, 2008
Messages
571
Reaction score
0
Location
Bridgend, South Wales
you trick them into thinking you are something your not, then make them feel like even bigger idiots when you lecture them

not really the best way to get what you want
But if he walked in and said here is some information on fishless cycling, they would probobaly just say we already know. They are not going to embarrass themselves in the shop are they ;)

How many sigs do you have axle? Everytime i look it is new lol.
Oh...1 or 2
 

shelaghfishface

the one and only
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
6,754
Reaction score
0
Location
BARRY,s.wales
I know what 5teady is doing is not to everyones taste. And I accept that it might not even make much difference. I also agree that most of the poepl who buy fish just don't care about them really. But the thing is, 5teady cares, and he cares enough that he wants to DO something, whether it is a blinding success or a terrible failure. And he is sharing it with us in the belief that we too care about fish, and get angry when they hear LFS employees giving bad advice. And I have always thought that, if you are mad enough about something, then there is no point moaning - you have to go out an DO something about it, whether it is successful or not! So i applaud 5teady for doing what I wish i had the get up and go to do. It is great to share opinions on here, sometimes seeing things from a different point of view can really help. So we should all continue to contribute to this thread, but I don't think anyone should be having a go at 5teady for standing up for what he believes in - whether he is going about it in the way YOU would or not!

i 100% agree with you tibby... go 5teady..go 5teady ;)

Axle i love your new avatar ( wot a tw@t)- suits you :lol:-- the colour i mean..

shelagh xxx
 
OP
5teady_2012

5teady_2012

Here to help
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
4,660
Reaction score
0
Location
GB
you trick them into thinking you are something your not, then make them feel like even bigger idiots when you lecture them

not really the best way to get what you want

Obviously, your ignorrance failed to read this ***whistles***

Pets at home, hull.


Phoned

Me: Hi, could i speak to *** please.

shop: Sure, 1 second.

shop, Hi this is ***, how can i help you.

Me: Hi, i was told to phone you as i was told you are the most experienced on the fish section.

Shop: thats right, how can help you.

Me: I have just setup a new tank, and was wondering about cycling, i have read that is a way to fishless cycle as well as cycling with fish, i was wanting some help about this.

Shop: yes thats right, cycling with fish is mainly what people do as its easier and to be fair i aint going to lie, its cheaper and most new people to the hobby are impatiant and just want fish in.. the problem is when you tell costumer about fishless cycling and it sounds so complicated to them they tend to just want to do it with hardy fish.

Me: i see, so if you have time, could you please point me in the correct direction of doing a fishless cycle?

Shop: Well you would need to buy a product that would help to cycle/mature the filter, we do sell products but after reading myself it seems not all work.. do you have the internet?

Me: yes

Shop: what i would do if i was you is read up on the internet about fishless cycling and find out what products work and dont, then maybe i can try to get you a certain product in that you want if we dont have it, you can by a product from stores that contain ammonia but this i dont know much about so it maybe best reading up about that also if you have set your mind on a fishless cycle.

Me: ok i will do that for sure.

Shop: When you have decided what you want to do, pop in or ring me and i will be happy to guide you more.

Me: ok thanks ***, i will read up on fishless cycling first and do some research before i contact you again.

Shop: Look forward to hearing from you, its nice to see someone actually not jumping in at the deepend for a change and taking time to research.

Me: i just want to whats best and not harm any fish in the making of my tank haha

Shop: haha, well im here most days so contact me anytime if you run in to any problems.

Me: Thank very much *** for your help.

shop: your welcome, have a good day.

Me: you too bye.



This i was very impressed with, especially from p@h, but i know *** and know he is pretty honest and clued up on the hobby...

Better go have a drink, putting on that husky voice done my throat in lol, phew he didnt suss me out lol
 
Top