Old Tank And New Tank Problems

[postingalwaysposting]

i am new to all this so please be patient i am a bit like this at the mo as my tank(s) are going all wrong )

i have had an hexagonal tank for just undar a year now and have had some problems regarding the nitrate levels but once i got these sorted and i set out a cleaning rota the fish were fine. This tank is 15-20 litres (uk) approx and has an undergravel filter, heater etc and 8 neon tetras (added over 3 months) and 3 male guppys (added 3 weeks ago, now only have 2 see below). I havent got a lfs but i do have an aquatic centre near by and while i was there purchasing my guppys i asked if i could get a light fitted in my exsisting tank, anyway the person i spoke to said it wouldnt fit as the hood was too slim so i just thought i would have to leave it as it was.

anyway a week later (sunday 26th) i visted my local pet store and i saw and fell in love with a rena startup tank (25 litres (uk)) and it included a light so i brought it, now i set it up that evening and everything was fine, i washed the gravel (came with the tank) washed two plastic plants and a stone as decoration (already had) and set the tank up. it was a new heater and a new internal filter (not used one before only under gravel filters on both my tropical and cold water tanks) all being fine i left it thinking give it a two/three weeks and once tetsed i will transfer my fish not so

on friday night i tested the tank and the nitrate level was 160ppm, so i do a 50% water change, test saturday and it hadnt dropped at all, so sunday evening i strip the tank, wash all of it in boiling water (tank decorations, heater, gravel, filter and changed the filter cartridge) and put the tank back together, level once put back together 10ppm and tested today 10ppm

In the meantime (the first time since having the tank and sorting it out first) the nitrate level on my old tank with the fish in rose to 160ppm (checked saturday night, i usually check this tanks levels every sunday night) did a water change etc and its now 40ppm. now i dont know what cause that (maybe moving the tank to a different area to fit this new tank in maybe) but anyway they are fine except one of the guppys died (prob because of the high level)

This is what i do to my tank sunday night (weekly) chemical test the tank. Monday evening (weekly) 30% water change. Monday evening (fournightly) syhon filter the gravel. They get fed in the morning usually 8ish and they get about a flake each (tropical flake fish food). Should i be doing anything else?

now for some questions sorry ) when can i transfer the fish over? the internal filter (rena) has cartridges and it says these should be changed every three weeks - would this not mess the levels up? I test (every sunday night) nitrate nitrite and ammonia, is there anything else i should be testing i have heard about ph on this site? thanks

*btw i am a very very novice tropical fish keeper, if anything i have said/done here is worng please correct me and explain to me how to do it correctly, i love my fish and wouldnt want any of them dieing due to me being an idiot ) *

 

[Jules H-T]

Nitrate is the end product of the nitrogen cycle. Having lots means all your fish waste has been converted and you need to do a water change.

Your new tank needs cycling either way. You can either do this with your fish, or without. Search here for fishless cycling.

If you want to do it with your fish, I would bundle up loads of the old gravel in a stocking, and put it near the intake on your new filter (only because it was a UGF, otherwise I wouldn't bother when cloning a tank).

You gave the impression that you might have just been standing your new tank doing nothing to it (because you didn't say you had been doing anything), but then again there would be no reason for the nitrates to rise. If you've been adding ammonia or food, probably what you are seeing is your cycle reaching it's conclusion. If you're testing 0 for ammonia and nitrite, and getting nitrate, then stop dosing now and get the fish over all at once immediately.

Don't bother changing the cartridges out, ever (well, 6 months or something, but certainly not 3 weeks, and never change them all at once). That's a sales ploy. When you do a water change/gravel vac, fill the bucket 2/3 full, whip the media out, rinse it in there (LIGHTLY sqeeezing all the crap out of it). Don't use new water, or hot water, and don't wring the life out of it. If your old tank is stabilisted, then enter a fishless cycle on the new tank leaving the old one as it is.

 

[postingalwaysposting]

I now know more than I did about the nitrate cycle I have read loads over this past week and I cant believe I didn’t know most of this *I now wish I took aquatics as on of my modules on my animal management course*

old tank with fish

I did a water change on the 4th and the nitrate level dropped to 10ppm and stayed that way all week until yesterday this morning I fed them and they were all fine but I came home from work and another guppy has died these are my old tank reading now (what’s wrong?) 10ppm nitrate, 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite. Fish left are 8 neon tetras and one male guppy

new tank with no fish

I cant understand the fishless cycle, I read and then reread it and I still don’t get it sorry, I have been adding nothing to the tank and the reading are now 10ppm nitrate, 0ppm ammonia and 0ppm nitrite. I cant do the gravel thing as the gravel in the new tank is totally different to the old tank . I though the filter cartridge thing was a bit much , so I will change it every 5 months or so.

 

[postingalwaysposting]

Can anyone advise me on what to do with my new tank? and when i can possibly move the fish over?

thanks

 

[postingalwaysposting]

no answers so i have just been out and brought 4 pristella tetras (x-ray tetras) in hopes they will cycle the new tank i hope i am doing this right *btw i will add some photos on the photo board later*

 

[Tolak]

The only real difference between a fishless cycle & a traditional cycle is the source of ammonia. Since ammonia is toxic to fish in larger amounts, and harmful in smaller amounts, frequent water changes are needed with a traditional cycle using fish.

I'll try to explain this in non-technical terms; Fish crap ammonia. Your first set of bacteria eat ammonia, crap nitrite. Your second set of bacteria eat nitrite, crap nitrate. Ammonia is bad for fish, nitrite is still bad, but not as bad as ammonia. Nitrate is even less bad than nitrate, all but the most sensitive fish can live with some level of nitrate in the water.

These two type of bacteria live mainly in your filter media, and to a smaller extent in the gravel. Like all living things, they need to eat, either being fed by the fish producing ammonia, or you adding ammonia. Also, like all living things, you don't want to overfeed them.

So with a fishless cycle you add enough food, being ammonia, to bring your level to 4 or 5 parts per million. The bacteria colony grows to the point that the first set of bacteria consumes that food in a 24 hour period, and craps out nitrite. It then grows the second set of bacteria that eat the nitrite, and crap out nitrate. When the second set of bacteria has grown to the point that it eats all the nitrite in 24 hours, your tank has cycled.

Here's a little chart that may help;

 

[postingalwaysposting]

thanks that is a great post, good reading so have i done right adding those fish?

 

[donna123]

hi,
i have the same rena 25ltr startup tank as you i use it as a fry tank,
those cartriridges that you are suppose to change evey 3 weeks are carbon,you dont even need it in if you dont want to,the good bacteria lie within the black sponge in the bottom part of the filter,its a 2 part system you can separate the top part off fixing back the part with the sponge in if you want.the tank took me 5weeks to cycle with fish in it,with regular water changes and water tests weekly, the gravel is different in your old tank? i used some gravel out of mine the rena came with white gravel their is room to put a mesh bag from your old tank,if you want to cycle with fish neons /guppies will not cope with high nitrate levels,
you have to decide weather to cycle with or without fish before you can add your stock.the tank wont hold lots of fish at 25ltrs dont be temted to buy any more fish yet,hth you will get there in the end ,
oh and rince out sponge lightly in tank water once every 1-2weeks no need to get a new one unless it looks like in needs replacing,its a pitty you dont live close i have one already mature.

 

[postingalwaysposting]

hi,
i have the same rena 25ltr startup tank as you i use it as a fry tank,
those cartriridges that you are suppose to change evey 3 weeks are carbon,you dont even need it in if you dont want to,the good bacteria lie within the black sponge in the bottom part of the filter,its a 2 part system you can separate the top part off fixing back the part with the sponge in if you want.the tank took me 5weeks to cycle with fish in it,with regular water changes and water tests weekly, the gravel is different in your old tank? i used some gravel out of mine the rena came with white gravel their is room to put a mesh bag from your old tank,if you want to cycle with fish neons /guppies will not cope with high nitrate levels,
you have to decide weather to cycle with or without fish before you can add your stock.the tank wont hold lots of fish at 25ltrs dont be temted to buy any more fish yet,hth you will get there in the end ,
oh and rince out sponge lightly in tank water once every 1-2weeks no need to get a new one unless it looks like in needs replacing,its a pitty you dont live close i have one already mature.

So donna, if I keep the carbon cartridges how long shall i wait to change them?, is it still 5 months and i didnt think you had to change the black stuff, do you, just rinse it?

I dont know if you saw my earlier post but i have now added new fish to my new tank (left the other ones in my old tank) was i correct in doing that? i hope i havent mucked everything up

*btw my tanks are now on the picture board so you can see the things that have been causeing you all this trouble *

 

[dgwebster]

good activated carbon typically lasts around 8-10 weeks before it starts dumping the muck its been keeping out of your water back into it and needs replaced, but its not essential to your tank - in fact, in the event of needing to treat illness, you must remove it for effective treatment.

RE: Your gravel. It doesnt matter if it is different gravel. You put some old gravel into a clean foot of some tights, knot it and sling it in your tank near the filter intake. 2 weeks or so later, remove the tights/foot from tights filled with the old gravel from your tank (i.e. removing the tights and the gravel you put in it.)

Your tetras are probably not the best starter fish for cycling a tank using fish, but with attention and TLC they should survive. For the next couple of weeks, do daily ammonia and nitrite tests - if either of them are showing, do a 25%-50% water change.

test nitrate every other day, if it goes above 40ppm, do water change.

ph is fish dependent on what is liked, but for tetras, you'd get away with 6.8-7.5 IIRC.

With regards to your hexagonal tank and the guppys:

your tank (being optimistic) is a 20litre hexagonal, which is 5 gallons (US).

Im going to hazard a guess that as your tank is hexagonal, its one of the most common hexagonal tanks you get that are fairly slender but tall(ish), maybe around 10"x10"x12" (the 10x10 being at the widest points.) A 10x10 rectangular tank would be over stocked with 8 neons and 3 guppys, so I believe that the hexagonal tank was way over stocked (and the reason for the very high nitrates) so ultimately the guppies are likely to have died from lack of oxygen, space and high nitrates. This is only a guess and may not be your exact situation and in the event it is, do not beat yourself up over this - we all make mistakes and loose some fish. The good thing is you have tried to get a source of information and learn to make your fish happier - alot more than some people do.

I cannot believe I am about to say this, but I am - go to Pets at Home (if you have one near you, if not, pm me your address and I will post you one) and get one of the leaflets on tropical fish care. it will explain the basics of almost everything. you can then search these forums and webpages for more in-depth information and will most likely make some sense from it.

 

[postingalwaysposting]

wow dave thanks for all that info, i cant belive i have been led into the wrong place by someone i though was an 'experienced' fish keeper, they said i can keep up to 20 tetras in that tank (old) tank, well i am so sorry

so all the fish will not be able to go in the new tank then?? if they wont will i have to keep some in the hexagon?? if so would i be able to change the decor and maybe (this is a big maybe) get some plants??

I have been getting most of my infomation from websites and here, thanks everyone but i think i may buy a book

 

[dgwebster]

Dont worry, I bought a book too - infact, I got it from Lidl on one of their featured days that had all sorts of fishy items. Cost £6.99 and was well spent.

There are many ways to work out the "maximum" fish you should have in a tank:

calculate the surface area, divide by 10
calculate the surface area, divide by 12

(the above are in inches)

1" of fish per 1 gallon of water

(above is more ideal for saltwater (marine) that tropical

and then there is more.

I ran a poll a while back on which one to use, and the surface area/10 was the most popular for freshwater tropical fish.

At the same time it is not a hard n fast rule - I am about to over stock one of my tanks a little bit (by about 3" of fish) but as the tank is over filters, I do not mind this so much.

To be honest, IMO you should keep the hexagonal tank anyway - but thats just cause i want more tanks anyway.

Your RENA startup tank is a great tank, but again I wouldnt go putting more than 13" of fish when lined up nose to tail in it.

the 4 of them plus your 8 tetras would be quite happy in there.

am I right in thinking you have a guppy left? you can either put him in with your new tank and that will be your limit.

Guppies are not partuclar for schooling or shoaling, but if you wanted to, you could keep your existing tank going and add another 6 or so to have a guppy tank with lots of babies

If you have a pets@home nearby and are looking for a book, they sell one by Dick Mills for £16 that is superb - Im even buying one next pay day - wish i could remember the title, but you will probably recognise it when you see it - has a picture of a sump on the back cover!!

 

[postingalwaysposting]

i wish i knew as much as you lol, i think i will keep my hexagon tank and keep my guppy in there and add some more (guppys) could i change the gravel though if i net it as you said and put the old stuff in there for the bactiria? (this has a undare gravel filter btw)

i know the book you mean i actually picked it up when i brought my new tanbk but didnt buy it doh

when can i add the neon tetras to the new tank?

*sorry abiut all the questions *

 

[dgwebster]

give it about a fortnight, then add 4 of the neons, a week or two weeks later (depending on the test results) the rest.

You only need to net a small handful of the gravel, but if you wish to change the gravel go ahead - im about to completely empty an existing tank tomorrow and change it to part grave part sand tank

and believe me, im a novice compared to some of the peops on this forum, ive been does this since about a month before i joined the forum (so about 5/6 months now) but ive spent nearly every spare bit of time i could get from my girlfriend and work to read up and learn about fish and aquariums. only in the last month have sumps started to make sense to me.

and once again, you are doing the right thing by learning. mistakes will happen though

 

[postingalwaysposting]

for all your help

yes that is true - you learn through your mistakes, but my first tank has been running for under a year and i cant belive i didnt know all this, well

good luck with your tanks, and once all my neons are in the new tank i may have a go at changing that gravel its way too stark

thanks again