Nitrite levels

[Courtneylou2905]

Hi everyone so I’ve had a new tank now I had it cycling for 3 weeks until my water perimeters were okay everything ammonia and nitrite was at zero and nitrate was sitting a good level I added my fish and my levels have been fine since I did a water change a week later I’m not sure what I’ve done I’ve got live plants and I’ve got my old filter and my new filter running in my tank I have an angel and one bristelnose and my nitrite has risen loads even after doing 3/4 water 50% water changes I’ve used my gravel cleanser and I’ve been dosing with prime I’ve been to the aquatics and they’ve told me to add some fluva beneficial bacteria which I have done and told me to not do a water change while adding bacteria until 3 days later my ammonia has spiked up by the tiniest bits and it’s been a week now and my nitrites arnt lowering I’m unsure on what to do I’m second day in on adding mt beneficial bacteria any advice I’ll be appreciated my pleco is fine however mt angel is just abit jumpy and reallr darting at the glass whenever I’m near the tank so I can tell he’s stressed I havnt fed him since Thursday to try and not cause another spike
Water perimeters from today read -
Ammonia 0.01 ppm
Nitrite 0.6 ppm
Nitrate 5.0 ppm

 

[Essjay]

I'm afraid the advice you were given is completely wrong. You need to do a water change whenever ammonia or nitrite reads above zero as both these are fast killers. Prime will detoxify both for around 24 hours, which will protect the fish between daily water changes. Prime should only be used to treat the new water at a water change, not added to the tank like a medication.

Which bottled bacteria have you got? The two most effective are Tetra Safe Start and Dr Tim's One & Only (though the latter is not as readily available in the UK as the Tetra product). Those two are known to contain the correct species of nitrite eaters; other brands may contain the wrong species.

I'm afraid you are currently doing a fish-in cycle, despite the plants and mature media. If you have only a few slow growing plants, they won't be doing much to help but fast growing stem plants and floating plants will help.
The simplest way is to test the water daily and do a water change when ever ammonia or nitrite read above zero. But there are more complex ways to deal with the situation if you can deal with them. You'll find both ways here

Rescuing A Fish In Cycle Gone Wild - Part Il

Part II SO YOU STILL WANT TO KEEP CYCLING WITH FISH? If you are determined to ignore the above advice in Part I and still think you want to proceed with a fish in cycle, then you need to be aware of the information presented below. SOME IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT AMMONIA Ammonia in water exists...

www.fishforums.net

 

[Courtneylou2905]

I have done another water change yesterday 30% I’ve also been adding prime and fluval beneficial bacteria and also stress zyme I’ve done a test this morning and ammonia level is the same as it was yesterday however nitrite levels have gone down and nitrate levels have risen I’ve now gone out and bough some api quick start
My water perimiters this morning have read
Ammonia - 0.05ppm
Nitrite - 0.4 ppm
Nitrate - 15 ppm

 

[Essjay]

Ammonia isn't too bad unless you have a high pH (more ammonia is in the toxic form at high pH) but nitrite needs to be much lower. You need to do another water change, much bigger than 30%. That amount will get nitrite to 0.28 ppm which is still too high. It needs to be as close to zero as possible, so I would do another large water change - even 75% will leave 0.1 ppm nitrite. Or two large water changes back to back.

 

[Courtneylou2905]

Thank you I’ll do one after work tomorrow lunchtime as I’m currently working right now so won’t get done tonight should I continue double dosing with prime and adding beneficial bacteria i boight a new bottle today of api quick start also shall I leave the two filters in there as they got cleaned on Tuesday and the other one on friday also using my gravel siphon

 

[TwoTankAmin]

If you have .01 ppm of ammonia what test are you using? I have never seen one that reads that low. And it doesn't matter as neither .01 nor .05 are a problem unless you have a test which only reads NH3 and ignores NH4, in that case .05 ppm would be the danger line.

I am not sure your three weeks got your tank cycled. You have not provided any numbers or history to show what happened. Cycling is a process, it follows in a series of steps. By recording your test results and keeping a running history, it is possible to diagnose any issues. how did you add ammonia to get it cycled? How much did you add and what happened when you did so?

Next, I would suggest that you take all of the products you mentioned above, except Prime. and ask a family member or friend to hide them from you.

The article Essjay linked will give you an idea about dealing with ammonia and nitrite. I doubt either is a real issue in what you report. Nitrate at 15 ppm isn't an issue either, 20 ppm is an OK ceiling for most fish before a water change is needed. What that article will teach you hat should help you to understand and use ammonia testing and when any given ammonia reading is a danger or not. .50 ppm in one tank can be OK for the short term while in another, with different parameters, it will be fatal.


Any bacterial product that will help with cycling will have a few things present:
1. It will contain live bacteria not spores.
2. it will be specific for fresh, brackish or saltwater. The bacteria in these are not identical.
3. It should not be allowed to freeze or get much above 100F for any length of time as this will kill the bacteria.
4. It should only need to be added once at the proper level to do the job for which it is being used.
Then also know that:
5. The average fishless cycle takes 5 - 6 weeks unless the proper bacteria has been seeded in the tank or there are live plants involved.
6. Water changes slow a cycle and should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.

Do not overdose Prime and do not add the Fluval or any other bacteria except for Dr. Tim's One and Only or Tetra's Safe Start or Safe Start Plus. They are very similar and contain the exact strains of bacteria you need to have long term in your tank. This means do not use the API product, it is not what you actually need. However, I do not think you need to add bacterial additive.

Finally, plants use ammonium faster than bacteria use ammonia. Most of the ammonia in tank water is in the form of ammonium. Plants also host the needed bacteria on them. If one has enough plants of the right kind in a tank they should not need to cycle it. One can just begin adding fish gradually and only see very low readings and not for very long. Sometimes you never see readings above 0 at all. However, this sort of "cycle" means that you cannot add a full fish load at the outset the way you can with a true fishless cycle.

Bear in mind that when plants use up ammonia, they do not make nitrite or nitrate. Most plants prefer ammonia over nitrate because they must expend energy to use Nitrate. So they will only do so when ammonia is not available.

My advice to you is do not add anything to the tank unless it is dechlor for a water change. None of the ammonia results you reported is likely an issue, if you can let me know your tank's pH and temperature, I can tell you for certain things are OK for all the levels you posted. I can also show you how I do this and how you can do it for yourself. If you still have the nitrite level that you reported above, a very very small amount of salt will protect your fish from it.

Skip adding any more bottled bacteria, a better solutions would be to add a few more fast growing plants. Floaters or most stem plants will do the trick.

 

[Courtneylou2905]

I use the jbl liquid test kit pro on the top of the sheet where the number readings are it shows in the corner mg/l (ppm) I am in the process of adding more plants to my tank but I can do the other tests today to let you know

 

[TwoTankAmin]

I tried to get some info re your test kits. I am not at all sure what you are using as JBL offers multiple products. I did find their NH4 test but I am not sure it is what you are using. I know almost nothing about JBL and they do not make it easy to find it either. They talk about NH4 when the actual danger is from NH3. They say their NH4 test also tests for NH3 but I saw nothing about that on their site or in the test kit instructions.

Based on the time I spent reading on the JBL site I got the impression they were trying to confuse users not give them clear simple instructions. Can you provide me with links to your actual ammonia test product and/or the comprehensive kit you have? JBL may make the world's best test kit but they also write the world's worst instructions and explanations.

I personally would not buy a JBL kit because they are not user friendly which makes them less useful no ,atter how good they might be.

Most test kists in the hobby measure total ammonia. this is the sum of NH3 and NH4. The problem with this is that the NH3 form is way more toxic than the NH4. So the most important information one needs is know is how much of the total ammonia is in each form. here is why.

Lets look at two different tanks which have one thing in common, a total ammonia test shows both tanks have 2 ppm of ammonia. One of the tanks houses fish that do well in softer water and are in water with a pH of 7.0. The other tank has harder water and will housr rift lake cichlids and has a pH of 8.0. While temperature also can affect test results. ot os much less of a determinant than pH. So lets say both tanks are at 78F (25.6C).

How do we know how much of the that identical 2 ppm level for total ammonia is in each for in the two tanks? Science has some not funm to do math to answer that, but this is the digital age and there are online calculatiors that can give us the info quickly and easily. I am going to run the numbers on the one I use which is here https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php

I use .05 ppm for NH3 (ammonia) as the red line. Cross that and more and more species will suffer.

The tank at 7.0 has the following: NH3 = .0120 ppm NH4 = 1.9880 ppm
The tank at 8.0 has the following: NH3 = .1142 ppm. NH4 = 1.8858 ppm

The fish in the 7.0 tank can be in that 2 ppm of Total ammonia for a short time- and be OK. The fish in the 8.0 tank are in trouble now. This means the NH4 level is not what we really need to know it is the NH3 level which is the key. Because we know that water changes slow cycling we only want to being them when needed and not blindly at some Total Ammonia level or some NH4 level.

If you have the 7.0 tank above you should be doing nothing but continuing to test and monitoring your fish, If you have the 8.0 tank you need ed to be doing a water change way before the Total Ammonia hit 2.0.

Testing hobby tanks should be fairly easy to do and the results should be easy to understand and useful. I looked at the chart at the end of their instructions. There is no .01 NH4 level, the lowest level is .10.

Your life would be a lot simpler and easier if you had the API kits which are way easier to use and more user friendly.

The one good thing I saw about the JBL test is it compensates for discoloration of one's water. API will not do that. However, I consider the NH4 result unhelpful as they use it and personally I would not use this ammonia test kit if it were given to me at no cost. At least they do explain that pH is an important factor in ammonia testing. Consider as an example the SeaChem test bellow:

This kit measures total (NH3 and NH4+) and free ammonia (NH3 only) down to less than 0.05 mg/L and is virtually interference free in marine and fresh water. Free ammonia is the toxic form of ammonia (vs. ionized Ammonia NH4+ which is non-toxic) and thus it is much more important to keep an eye on the level of free ammonia in your system. This kit may be used with freshwater or marine water. Unlike other kits on the market, the chemical basis for this test assures that interference from other substances is highly unlikely. MultiTest™ Ammonia performs over 75 tests and contains a reference sample for validation.

So, you use a test for total ammonia. Then you go to my link for getting the breakdown of your test results.

Also, did you read the rescueing a fish in cycle part II on this site as I suggested? it explains most of the above.

 

[Courtneylou2905]

Hi yes I’ve been reading on the link you sent me lots of useful information on there so thank you within the last 24 hours I’ve done a water change and I’ve moved the bog wood and got all under there I’ve also bought some filter particles aswell they go In the bottom of the filter like chunky bits I can’t remember the name the aquarium kindly gave me some free out of their tanks I get what you mean about ammonia tests it’s so confusing I’m gonna invest in api as I use there products mostly either api or prime and I get on well with them my ammonia test is near enough clear after a water change and double dose of prime and my nitrite has also come down a lower level but still higher then I’d like but my nitrate has gone up so im going to re test tonight again as the water change has only been done in the last hour but I’m still adding the tetra benfical bacteria as I managed to come across a bottle

 

[TwoTankAmin]

OK- but here is the minor problem with what you have done. I never tell anybody to overdose prime for a few reasons. Prime basically converts the ammonia as NH3 to ammonium NH4. This makes it way less toxic. However, the bacteria want the NH3 and those whic can use NH4 as well do so much less efficiently. So Peime actually slows the cycle but does not stop it.

Next, use a bit of salt for the nitrite because water changes also slow the cycle. There are several reasons one might add some salt toa FW tank, most of these are fro medicinal type reason. It us used to treat Ich for example and it can be effective against some parasites. We all know fw fish cannot live in sw and mist cannot handle brackish either. Some fw species are also very sensitive to salt and can not handle too much. But the concentration of salt needed to counteract/block nitrite is extremely low. Moreover it doesn't need to be there for very long. Water changes will work against this.

The fact that we do not need to change water to combat a temporary nitrite condition means not doing them allows the bacteria to multiply faster. It is a shame there is nothing like this we can use with ammonia. There only water changes will help.

Because you have fish and are trying to cycle here are some good rules of thumb:
1. Above all, the health of the fish should always guide us no matter what the test kits say.
2. The way to deal with NH3 at .05 ppm or above is via water changes. This means we need to knopw how much of any Total Ammonia reading is in either for as discussed previoulsy.
3. Because nitrite can be blocked with a little salt (sodium chloride) water changes need not be done for it. We could also use calcium chloride but it is much more costly. After the nitrite issues is gone, water changes remove the salt.
4. Nitrate is only an issue with fish present. For a fishless cycle it can build up to the point where it drops the pH and that can be a problem. But this is pretty rare. However, with fish present a max. of 40-50 ppm on an API test is OK for a short time. Ideally we want nitrate under 20 ppm. Longer term exposure to elevated nitrite can interfer with fish reproduction and at high levels it will act like nitrite.
5. Dechlor is what is known as a reducing agent. This means it will take some oxygen out of the water to do what it does. If one is adding other chemicals that are also reducing aganets, this can be a problem, especiallly if nitrite is present. Flourish Excel is an example. Assing these two products where one or both are overdosed can be a disaster.

Remember that cycling is a process. For the nitrate to go up it means there are nitrite bacteria converting nitrite to nitrate. So rising nitrate is actually a good thing to see.

Stop adding anything to your tank except the normal dose of Prime when you change water or a bit of salt for nitrite. Do not add more bacteria, do not add any other chemicals at all. What I see is a concerned fish keeper, which is a good thing, who is trying to do right by their fish by adding things that actually will not help. The more "stuff" you add, the slower things are going. It is one thing when something is actually needed, but here they are not.

Bear in mind that manufacturers want us to use more of their products. So Even tetra and Dr. Tim;s suggest other times to add bacteria when they are not needed. Water changes, a few new fish etc. do not mean add more bacteria. The bacteria will reproduce naturally to eadl with these things. Under optimal conditions the ammonia ones can double in about 8 hours. So how much time would it take for them to increase by say 10 or 15%. They also can up regulate the amount of ammonia they can handle by a bit before it triggers them to reproduce. The tqo products I recommend come ion different sizes based on the water volume of a tank. At the outset use the one closest for your tank size. A bit too much or too little will not matter and they will reproduce or die back accordingly. When bacteria die, like all other organics, they will become an ammonia source. So massively overdosing bacteria is not a great idea.

The longer you have a tank and the more you observe the fish, the better you will become at spotting when there are issues. I have had multiple tanks for 22 years. I can walk by a tank and out of the corner of my eye notice soemthing seems out of place or a fish is befaving wierdly or appears to be missing. The longer you are at this, the better you will get at spotting issues and also at knowing how to deal with them.

 

[Courtneylou2905]

Okay I’ll get some salt then today and I checked my levels again this morning after yesterdays water change and they have gone down now so my ammonia is reading at 0 and nitrite has lowered to 0.07 and my nitrate has lowered to 4 so whatever you have been guiding me I’ve been following and it has been working !!! So thank you so much