My Pictures... Multiple Aquariums

[SJ2K]

Bettas require a 2 gallon. No less, and probably no more.

Im pretty certain a betta in a 50g heavily planted tank would thrive a hell of alot more then one in some silly 2g cookie jar, personly i think 2g and less should be kept for brine shrimp. Everyone keeps reffering to the wild, bettas dont live in puddles all year round, in the dry season maybe, else there in huge lush streams etc.

 

[three-fingers]

What about the Goldfish. They are cold water, and the frog is tropical.

Actually, goldfish are subtropical fish, most tropical temperatures provide no problems for them at all - it's all the extra waste they produce when their metabolism is sped up that's really the problem.

Before I you respond to me, keep in mind most of these are my opinions based off of facts.

No problem, I had assumed that, but to me it appears that you have misinterpreted some facts - especially in the relation to goldfish .

These specific fish don't really think as dogs do, and the dogs intelligence is much greater than any fish. If you trap a dog in a room, it will start whimpering and realize that it is... trapped... If you do this to a fish, it would take a much smaller area for it to realize it is trapped.

Not really a great comparison, even though (if I follow correctly) you are still limiting this conjecture to domestic Betta splendens - I don't think you've considered habituation here.
These fish have lived their whole lives in tiny volumes of water, and as a result show no reaction to it.
As I'm sure even people in the betta section would testify, if you were to put a betta that had lived in a big volume of water all (or in some cases most) of it's life into a much smaller one - there would be a clear change in behaviour that you could compare to a dog whimpering.
Likewise, if a dog is habituated to a tiny area, it wont whimper or show any related reactions. You see this on these animal rescue shows on TV where they go into places like illegal dog breeders who keep the dogs in tiny pens.
I wouldn't consider keeping the dogs in these conditions acceptable just because the animals are showing no reaction to it, and I'm sure you wouldn't either. So why is it considered acceptable with bettas? I'd say simply because few people really think about it enough, and some that do just don't value the fish enough to get a bigger tank (the "it's just a fish" people in petstores).

Fish do not really think as we do or as dogs do, because they just react upon their instinct to live.

I always find such statements interesting. It's a pretty big presumption and generalisation to make, without a background in neuroethology or a similarly specific field.
My view is basically that there is no way whatsoever for us to actually know things like that.

I do not advise putting fish into small tanks, but I really think that his tank setup is fine for the goldfish. These goldfish don't get as large as others. Maybe the filtration should be upgraded though...
With the outgrowing of the tank part, What is the problem to grow out a fish in a smaller tank? Many people do this with new younger fish. The younger fish must reach a certain size before they can be safe from larger fish in the aquarium. This isn't the case here, but he is still doing basically the same thing: growing out a fish in a smaller tank. When the fish gets larger, it will be added to the main aquarium. And yes, I do consider the life of dogs higher than a goldfish. I do not want to start an argument though, so please remember these are just some opinions.
If 3 Bala sharks and 3 blood parrots were in that small tank, I'm sure there would be a greater response because that is not proper fish keeping. These goldfish however, I feel the tank is less worse with them instead. Now I'm assuming you were speaking of the small temporary tank holding the parrots and 3 balas. There are only a couple goldfish, so a fair analogy would be the same number of blood parrots as there are goldfish if you consider their lives of equal value. Also the bala sharks would not be able to live to their full potential in his final tank, where these goldfish can.

I can only presume that you either failed to read the link to the post I provided, or totally dismissed it as rubbish.
It's true that these goldfish do not grow as big as regular goldfish - but they still grow much too large for this tank. Fancy goldfish easily attain the size of 6" diameter swimming spheres (excluding fins), so I take it you've not seen fancy goldfish that have been grown in proper conditions.
The problem is (which you should understand if you had read the link) basically that goldfish get 'stunted' in small tanks due to a build up of metabolites. This is why goldfish always get much larger and live much longer when kept in ponds and huge tanks. Stunting creates big problems for the goldfish, the liver is usually the first thing to go and their immune system leaves them open to attach from any pathogen that makes its way into the tank. This is the fate of most goldfish.
Goldfish are just a type of carp that have been selectively bred for thousands of years.
Just because it's socially acceptable to have them living a completely inadequate environment does not make it right, and this is reflected by the views of people on goldfish forums and in the coldwater section here.
Carp are messy, large and active fish that have a stunting mechanism. You cannot keep 3 goldfish in a 2.5gal until they outgrow it, and even the mentioned 28gal would be too small for the whole life of the fish, as it would not allow them to 'live to their full potential'.

The only problem is that sometimes people let the feelings from frustration come out in their responses.

I'd agree with that, and I think that's due to the fact that text on the internet is a very limited medium for expressing emotions.
IMO people should just use more smilies in such situations .

I do think that a 2 gallon would be better for the betta, but I think that keeping one in a .75 gal is not wrong. I'm sure that a betta could live just as healthily in both situations, with proper water changes and such. I'm not sure if I read this statement right, but did you compare my 2 gallons to .75 gallons to the same as 100 gallons to .75? In my opinion, .75 and 2 gallons are both equal to one bucket pretty much. I don't keep small aquariums like this. I also don't want to start a huge debate about this, but a year ago the general consensus on this forum was that 1 gallon was appropriate.

As you say, you don't keep small aquariums, but trust me in that that is a very significant amount of extra space for the fish to move in a standard 2gal than there is in this wall thing.
I'm going to reserve my opinions on adequate tank sizes for bettas, as like I said, I feel the topic is so opinionated no argument ever prevails.

I respect what you said, and you brought up very important points in a coherent manor. I hope other members respond as you have.

Why thank you, your making me blush .
I really appreciate how civilised this is going, no name calling or anything! Thanks for the intelligent discussion.

 

[darknirvana217]

Bettas require a 2 gallon. No less, and probably no more.

Im pretty certain a betta in a 50g heavily planted tank would thrive a hell of alot more then one in some silly 2g cookie jar, personly i think 2g and less should be kept for brine shrimp. Everyone keeps reffering to the wild, bettas dont live in puddles all year round, in the dry season maybe, else there in huge lush streams etc.

In the wild they don't have cumbersome human produced ornamental fins either.

 

[SJ2K]

True enough, although I still find it hard to believe they've been bred to prefer smaller spaces.

 

[spAcE mOnkEy]

Three-fingers,
I can see we both have very different opinions. No matter how wrong the others opinion seems we should still respect them. I believe when keeping any fish, water quality and tank size are very important. I think too many people underestimate the true strength of fish. When compared to fish in the wild, both will have to face stress, it is a natural occurrence which can never be prevented completely. The ideal care for any animal would involve it being completely stress free, but this almost impossible to create. Anything can cause stress, such as transporting fish, water changes, holding tanks, other tank mates, and young children. This is why I think some people act a little too harsh when it comes to keeping fish, and I'm not really referring to Dr.Bogger.

I should also say that I prefer larger predatory fish, and I find absolutely no interest in bettas and goldfish.

EDIT: I know that the veil tail betta and the goldfish are not wild fish.

 

[Nix]

Fish do not really think as we do or as dogs do, because they just react upon their instinct to live.

I always find such statements interesting. It's a pretty big presumption and generalisation to make, without a background in neuroethology or a similarly specific field.
My view is basically that there is no way whatsoever for us to actually know things like that.

So, you require a degree in neuropathology in order to be able to understand a dog has a different level of intelligence and instincts? I find comments like that interesting.

So lets see, most of you are demanding a 2 gallon tank, right. How much more surface area is a 2 gallon hexagon tank that most people use? (which I know rectangular ones exist) If anything for a .75 gallon it has a good design, a wide body and small base. Optimized space for swimming.

As for the goldfish comments, the guy said hes moving them as they grow. What more do you want from him? His birth certificate and proof of purchase? Come on people it only takes one person to say it, not 30 to drive the man insane, and chase him away from the "friendliest forum whatever".

 

[Le Sorcier]

Don't want to have a go at Dr Bogger but has anyone asked why there is no filtration or heating?

 

[three-fingers]

So, you require a degree in neuropathology in order to be able to understand a dog has a different level of intelligence and instincts? I find comments like that interesting.

Nope, it was the presumption that fish "just react upon their instinct to live" while both dogs and humans don't. I never mentioned anything about levels of intelligence, that's a very subjective thing anyway.

So lets see, most of you are demanding a 2 gallon tank, right. How much more surface area is a 2 gallon hexagon tank that most people use? (which I know rectangular ones exist) If anything for a .75 gallon it has a good design, a wide body and small base. Optimized space for swimming.

I'd say that if anything for a .75 gallon, it has less swimming space than the equivalent hexagon or cuboid shaped tank, as it kinda tapers in around the edges.
For bettas I wouldn't be too worried about surface area, labyrinth fishes are great at dealing with oxygen depleted water.
But that's not to say I think this thing is terrible for a betta.

As for the goldfish comments, the guy said hes moving them as they grow. What more do you want from him? His birth certificate and proof of purchase? Come on people it only takes one person to say it, not 30 to drive the man insane, and chase him away from the "friendliest forum whatever".

I don't really want anything from him. He evidently cares about his fish, so was offering some advice. That advice was basically to move them to a bigger tank before they grow - because otherwise they are going to be severely stunted, suffer health issues and likely die.
If kept this way what's going to happen is two of the fish will die and you'll be left with one big goldfish (but still not as big as it could have been).
I just give the advice I'd like to be given if I was in such a position .

 

[fishyfreak]

I'm not sure it's the advice that would drive newbies away, it's more the way it's given. He obviously loves his fish, maybe instead of saying "That fish isn't happy and will die if..." or "your being cruel to that fish, we should cram you into a trunk and see how it feels..." maybe take a more positive approach, ask the admins they're good at giving advice without insulting the members.

 

[snoopyfrench87]

i think its good that you are clearly getting passionate about fish keeping - u sure do have a lot of tanks - but maybe its best to concentrate on a few small things first.

i haven't been a tropical owner for very long so im not in the position to moan or tell right from wrong.

but from the reading up i have done myself i do know that beta's breathe from the surface and the surface area in the tank you have hung on your wall may be a little too small due to the shape of the tank. maybe try changing the beta for something else that's smaller and more robust.

i too keep goldfish and then get bigger tanks or a pond to put them in, but make sure that you do this quite quickly and don't - however tempting it may be - over stock the tank - goldfish make a lot of poo!

you do have a lot of guppy fry so you must be doing something right!! its a sign of good water quality when fish breed.

anyway - good luck with the tanks - keeping tropical fish is a very expensive business and you got to be prepared for that with tank upgrades and meds and such. but try and do as much reading as you can - the only way us noobs learn after all is making mistakes!

 

[newfishy]

you do have a lot of guppy fry so you must be doing something right!! its a sign of good water quality when fish breed.

guppys will still keep having fry until they themselfs die....whether or not the water quality is good

 

[Amunet]

The reason the wall mounted bowl thing isn't the best option really is b/c you can't heat it properly to what betta fish need.
Unless your house is extremely warm and keeps the water at a consistant 76-82F all day and night long, then anything less than a gallon should only be temporary IMO.

Get a decent 25watt heater for the 2 gallon (making sure to test it out first for a few days), change the plastic plants to silk or real (plastic ones have sharp edges that can cut into their fins), and put the betta into it after you've cycled it.



As multiple people have already said, I don't think anyone is trying to have a go at you, they're just concerned for the fish. Some advice might've been delivered the wrong way, but we're all trying to help.

 

[dzsigmond217]

I don't know what the temp of the water is in the betta bowl..but aren't they tropical fish which like warm water? I had a male betta in a 2 gallon vase for 2 days without a heater and he just sat coma like. On day 2 my mini heater (that I purchased online) came in the mail and once the water got up to 78degrees he was swimming around like crazy and eating. I'm also putting a small airstone in. The wires hang off the rim of the vase but I don't care it still look nice and he looks a lot 'happier'. You might not really be able to tell if a fish is happy or unhappy but in my opinion I'd rather have a fish that is swimming around poking at the gravel and plants then one that just sits near the surface or the bottom! I think that looks 'normal' for a fish and normal=happy to me.. I know it sucks when you think all is fine and you post your pics and get some what negative feedback..but try to look at the positive of it and keep open minded. For example: try putting your betta in the empty 2 gallon filtered and heated tank and see if there is a difference in his behavior. Perhaps he will be like my betta and perk up. You might even enjoy him as a pet more, now that he has the room to swim all over the place. Give it a go..the tanks empty so it can't hurt right?
I'm having issues with tanks cycling as well so I hope the tank thats giving you some trouble clears up for you!

 

[betta_luvr]

Ok...just stating my opinion here...but its not nice to just put that his/hers betta doesnt look happy...the fish may very well be happy, and at least its not in one of those little plastic containers that barely offer enough room for it to move around in! Be nice, and dont state that someones fish looks unhappy, its not fair to the owner. In my opinion, I like the betta bowl on the wall idea, it looks spacious! Great job with the tanks and I wish you the best!

I think the term is "constructive criticism" - would you want to live in a cardboard box for the rest of your life just because it was "bigger than what you arrived in"?

No disrespect to you - but if you move that Betta into the 2 Gal, he'll be like a changed fish. And don't you want to give him the biggest and best space you possibly can?

Food for thought.

 

[betta_luvr]

How do you know a fish isn't happy based off of one picture? How does anyone know if a fish is happy at all?
Fish don't smile or laugh, so it is unfair for all of you to say that these fish are unhappy.

Evidently, look/behaviour of this fish gives some indication to if it's needs are being met. I don't think the focus is on if the fish is "happy or sad" just if the best quality of life possible for this fish is being achieved in it's current circumstances.