Lfs Ignorance

[Curiosity101]

You don't need to do an extensive scientific study to end up with evidence. There is plenty of evidence if you look for it.

And it is correlation. The correlation is between ammonia LEVELs and death... or fair enough 'time to death'.
Low levels of ammonia don't damage the gills as fast as high levels so consistent .5ppm will result in premature death but higher levels bring it on faster etc.

You can deny the evidence till you're blue in the face, but you're just being stubborn... or slightly scientifically snobby (ie. you don't have all the evidence in front of me with actual full scientific papers and therefore you have no point).

Plus... there probably have been studies. I vaugely remember reading one... check out some of the nature based scientific journals.

 

[KittyKat]

I have read a few (published, scientific) papers on the subject as well, pointing to generally the same conclusion as Curiosity101 has come to. nurglespuss, I do not have any of them on me now, but I am sure you can find some of them if you search.

 

[nurglespuss]

'Scientifically snobby' , well that would just be me, being a scientist I guess.....

If the papers are there, bring them up, I've never seen them.

The point still stands, without actual eveidence (from research based study) its purely assumption, and assumption is dangerous.

If being stubborn means being right, well I guis that makes me both.

Its not a correlation, a corrollatory effect, is a progressive/recessive/other relationship over a set 'period' (whatever form that period may take) where there is a correlation between each data point. You don't get this when reffering to 'ammonia killing fish' its a given, 'X' level of ammonia will kill 'X' sized fish in 'X' space over 'X' time period.

A correlation would be, a rise over time in the use of fishless cycling, correlating with a rise over time in fish survivability, in tanks using fishless cycling, and with no other changes. That would be your correlation.

The point I want you to take home is:

what are you looking at for your own version of 'better'?

If, from your own ethical standpoint, you consider fish cycling worse than fishless cycling go ahead and make that choice based on your own opinion. You cannot however base it on evidence or 'fact' (which is nom de plume for the result of evidence).....

 

[Davo86]

In fairness to the average LFS around 95% (IME) of the customers they serve on a weekly basis are just as ignorant, if not more so,

Just like LFS employees, good fishkeepers are very few and far between - said but unfortunately very true.

 

[nurglespuss]

A very astute comment, and most importantly back on the original topic! (Which I admit I accidentally diverged from).

 

[Aqua Tom]

It was not a "chain" store it was a very large, very well stocked, very impressive independent store (I went to see before I phoned them). It seemed very well set up & profesional which is why I was very dissapointed. Here is thier website.



Before that I was dealing with a small independant shop with one employee inside. He was much more helpfull & he gave me some of his gravel straight away when asked.

Seems if you are a big shop it means not all of your employees are/will be keen enthusiasts.

 

[Timmy_Bee]

i think the other point is that these fish stores are more interested in money than fish (and as a business, thats not all that bad)
Until some sort of government regulation comes into place (which i hope it won't) they are well within their right to act ignorant.
10 years ago, it was the same in the financial industry until the FSA was created and now you don't get cowboy mortgage brokers, 5 years ago it was the same in McDonalds until another gov body was created (also called FSA... but Food not Finance) and now they have to show their %GDA's everywhere...

I think im getting off topic. In short, LFS's are worried about your wallet, not the fish. And the last thing we want is the government to intervene so we all have to prove we have got a 10g tank before buying a shrimp…

PS don’t take this as me defending the LFS's - its not right, but they have got to get their money somehow, otherwise they will be Distant Fish Stores

 

[OldMan47]

Before you get too carried away dissing your local fish shop, please remember that many of the folks that own those shops learned about fish around the same time and in much the same way that I did. They learned to succeed with a fish-in cycling situation and may not have done much reading about fishless cycling since those days. They are likely very good at caring for their fish and may well provide excellent care for the fish before you bring them home. The fact that a shop has not stayed up to date with "modern methods" of cycling does not mean they are not a good place to deal with. It would mean that I would take their advice with a grain of salt but that is no reason to immediately dismiss their stock as unsuitable for your tanks.

 

[RustedKnight]

You can name the shop y'know. People cry over Pets At Home every week. No difference is it?

A fish store will rarely recommend fishless cycling as it is 6 weeks of no business for them.

James.

My local Peta at home fed me all sorts of useless wrong information when I was first setting up, unfortunately it ended up with me losing a lot of my fish..grr.

But, I then took the time to get to know the people in the store, and now I only deal with Debbie, as she has been fishkeeping for 20 years and knows basically everything I need to know, so I ask her what days she is in and etc, and she's the only person in the store i go to for information.

Thanks to this, i'm now extremely happy with Pets at Home as my lfs, and get my pick of any new stock and etc, and can pretty much order in anything I like.

So, my advice is, before dismissing a pet store/chain take a visit to the shop, and have a chat with the brains of the operation, department manager or whoevers in charge of the fish, they should know what they are on about, if they don't go elsewhere.
Leekes in Crosshands I have had issues with, and found their fish section manager to be unequipped for the job. Also their stock seemed poorly.

 

[james_fish]

You can name the shop y'know. People cry over Pets At Home every week. No difference is it?

A fish store will rarely recommend fishless cycling as it is 6 weeks of no business for them.

James.

My local Peta at home fed me all sorts of useless wrong information when I was first setting up, unfortunately it ended up with me losing a lot of my fish..grr.

But, I then took the time to get to know the people in the store, and now I only deal with Debbie, as she has been fishkeeping for 20 years and knows basically everything I need to know, so I ask her what days she is in and etc, and she's the only person in the store i go to for information.

Thanks to this, i'm now extremely happy with Pets at Home as my lfs, and get my pick of any new stock and etc, and can pretty much order in anything I like.

So, my advice is, before dismissing a pet store/chain take a visit to the shop, and have a chat with the brains of the operation, department manager or whoevers in charge of the fish, they should know what they are on about, if they don't go elsewhere.
Leekes in Crosshands I have had issues with, and found their fish section manager to be unequipped for the job. Also their stock seemed poorly.

My point proven, thankyou very much...

James.