I'm really struggling here.

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Bruce Leyland-Jones

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I just don't get it.
Time and time and time again, I read posts from people who say how much they love their fish, how much they really do want to do the best for their fish...
...and then subject them to all manner of abuse.

"Ooooh, but we all make mistakes."
"Oh, but I was as bad when I was starting out".
"Hey...we all have to learn".
"It's not their fault they were misinformed by x..."
"But thy really DO want what's best for their fish".

It has been made quite clear that directly questioning or challenging poor care is not approved and I feel way, way more effort is applied to the potentially hurt feelings of the fishkeeper, than those creatures slowly (or quickly) dying whilst we watch.

We provide information and it is ignored.
"Oh dear, all my fish have now died, (insert Sad emoji here)...I'm going to start again! Tell me about cycling again...etc.".

I made mistakes long ago...and I made them once and, to date, have not yet had to re-learn a lesson.
I studied hard, spent time with those who knew what they were doing and paid close attention. It took effort...a lot of effort. I take time over every aspect of fish care and consider long before I commit.

I understand why people brand new to the hobby have difficulty, (even though we have so much quality information available), but when I read about people who have, or who have had, lots of tanks? Who talk about their past losses almost as if it was a Rite of Passage and then tell us about their current 'mystery' illnesses or deaths?

Now I have to say that this is not aimed directly at @mjfromga, but the response to my expressed concern did prompt me to reflect.
People are angry at me, whilst a guppy is being dangled as potential live food?
But no...I'm wrong and I'm dismissed as being rude and hurtful.

Thinking of the many miserable stories reported in here, just how far would people get if it was a dog, or a cat, treated to a similar degree of ignorance and subsequent abuse?
I recently rescued a kitten. It was sickly and starving, but the poor wee mite is getting better.
Here's a video of him, sitting next to my American Pit Bull.

Sometimes, it feels as if 'It's ONLY a fish' is alive and well in this Forum and that saddens me deeply.
 

mjfromga

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This IS directed at me and you may as well have posted it in my thread. Dangled as live food? If that is what you saw in that thread, so be it! You would really have a hard time in the REAL WORLD of fishkeeping if that is all you saw in that thread. As for trying to imply that I am abusive to my fish, that is purely an insult and one I will reject wholeheartedly. You're entitled to your opinions, but you are really almost always pushy and rude on people's threads and so while this behavior is not surprising, it is also not welcomed at all by me and I am going to viciously defend myself this time and this time ONLY.

I am not perfect and I have been pushy/rude when I see pointless fish death and actual abuse with horror water quality and crowding etc. And I always try to apologize when a user in a bad situation is at least TRYING. But to try and imply I am abusive because of that thread is an EXTREME stretch to me. Especially if you knew how hard I tried for this batch of guppies to have just ONE left by accident that I am TRYING to do what I can for.

I could have easily EUTHANIZED the fish and not said anything or put him with my outdoor goldfish or Blood Parrot where he would have CERTAINLY been quickly eaten... but I do this and try to save him and you STILL have to find ONLY FAULT. In addition, you just jump to conclusions and assumptions about MY other options as if you know me or where I am or what efforts I HAVE put forth.

As I said to another user, it must be nice to live in such a bubble that things like that thread trigger you so badly... and it must be even nicer to be able to spend as much time as one wants hugging trees, but not everyone has those "privileges" or even wants them.

With that said - I think from here on out, I will simply ignore your posts... as they are neither helpful or encouraging and I do not wish to read posts that are rude and accusatory just for the sake of being rude and accusatory.

I've ALSO noticed that the most accusatory and rude posters RARELY post photos or videos of their own tanks, but are quick to rip others to shreds for ANY little thing they don't like. To me that says a lot, as well.

You posted this because you literally were standing alone with how rude and accusatory you were and you are trying to gain followers because you had none there. Take them, but I won't bite anymore.
 

AdoraBelle Dearheart

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I made mistakes long ago...and I made them once and, to date, have not yet had to re-learn a lesson.
I studied hard, spent time with those who knew what they were doing and paid close attention. It took effort...a lot of effort. I take time over every aspect of fish care and consider long before I commit.

Please share a few of these mistakes with us. Perhaps that would help you see things from someone else's perspective.

Did any fish die or suffer as a result of those mistakes?

How did those people you learned from treat you when you made a mistake? Did they berate you and call you an idiot/cruel/a monster? Did that help? Or hurt?
 

Anonymous Fox

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I'll admit i have done this, when i was just starting.
I had guppies from my gradfather, and after 2 days they all died (there were 20ish, all under 5 months).
Then i went out and bought 3 female bettas and a 10 gallon tank, they all died within a month.
then my parents got a BNP, 2 more female bettas (we had one left), neon tetras, bloodfins, and silvertips, all in that 10 gallon, and i 100% Knew it was wrong, and i was upgrading, but luckly i was smart enough to know fish cannot go in an uncycled tank. Guess what happend? They all died. (not the tetras, they were fine, i still have them)
Honestly, don't. Just don't attack people for the mistakes they make. You can inform people there making mistakes, but don't attack them, It's wrong. And if they don't change, there learn not to the hard way. Of coures, yes, It not just a fish, or a toy, there a living breathing animal, but i think everyone has learned the hard way.
Don't be part of these forums if you don't like people making and fixing their mistakes
 
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CaptainBarnicles

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Having sharks like you about waiting to rip people to shreds are what can cause people to make further mistakes Bruce, because they'll be too afraid to ask or post anything. These forums have always been positive and welcoming in my experience and I for one want to keep it that way ❤
 

OliveFish05

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People come to this forum for help, advice, guidance, and community. They come here because they are making an effort to do better, because they care. The majority of new members are coming here because this forum is supposed to be a safe place to share your fish keeping problems and get help from people who have more experience. The beginners don't have the benefit of having years of experience like many members here do. You cannot expect them to know how to do things right. In a perfect world, yes everyone would do their research before taking on the commitment of a pet. That is just not the way the world is or the way people go about doing things. People go buy a betta and a 1 gallon bowl, they're not gonna know a thing about cycling or water parameters, they will fall in love with those neon pebbles and plastic plant, and they're going to want those 2 neon tetras. Sometimes what makes someone more open to help and willing to say "I was wrong, and I want to do better" and make those changes for the benefit of the fish is some patience, understanding, and gentle guidance from the people who do know how to do it right, the people who have that experience and the ability to say "hey, that's not right. Let's work through this together". People saying these things -
"Ooooh, but we all make mistakes."
"Oh, but I was as bad when I was starting out".
"Hey...we all have to learn".
"It's not their fault they were misinformed by x..."
"But thy really DO want what's best for their fish".
are not saying it makes the mistreatment of the fish ok, they're saying "there is valid reason you are where you are", and those are the people offering help. @Bruce Leyland-Jones you just point out everything that is wrong about the situation, make people feel hurt, misunderstood, unheard, and criticized, without offering any kind of solution or help in most cases I've noticed.

I had a thread seeking opinions on my stocking, I explained my situation with my cories and why I only had 2, and seemingly without even reading the thread or explanation, you said

"No!
Absolutely not!

Given the wealth of excellent and readily available info on the Pygmy Cory, what warped sensibilities tell you that just two would be a good idea?
Please excuse me whilst I go and find a sturdy wall to bash my head against."

That is just a downright hurtful, judgmental, and attacking comment. What this forum needs in those situations are people saying "you only have 2? Cories are schooling fish and need at least 5 friends to feel safe and be happy" not people saying "what warped sensibilities tell you that would be a good idea". That is an attack at someone personally to say that. If you have such access to "a wealth of excellent and readily available info", why don't you share it when people need it?

These situations are harmful to the hobby, and only push people away.

I know you are highly experienced and have a wealth of information. We need your kind of experience on this forum. Sometimes it just feels like there may be a better way to offer help?
 

AdoraBelle Dearheart

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I just don't get it.
Time and time and time again, I read posts from people who say how much they love their fish, how much they really do want to do the best for their fish...
...and then subject them to all manner of abuse.

"Ooooh, but we all make mistakes."
"Oh, but I was as bad when I was starting out".
"Hey...we all have to learn".
"It's not their fault they were misinformed by x..."
"But thy really DO want what's best for their fish".

It has been made quite clear that directly questioning or challenging poor care is not approved and I feel way, way more effort is applied to the potentially hurt feelings of the fishkeeper, than those creatures slowly (or quickly) dying whilst we watch.

Sometimes, it feels as if 'It's ONLY a fish' is alive and well in this Forum and that saddens me deeply.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone say or act as though "it's only a fish", or act as though it's okay if a fish is being mistreated.
So that's a strawman argument.

You like a straight, blunt approach, right? So I'll be straight with you. While you may have decades of experience keeping fish, and have plenty of useful info to share - you've only been a member of this forum for a little over two months.

Yet you want the entire culture of the forum to change. Who made YOU the boss? Why do seem to think your way is the only right way, and we're all meant to go along with it? In this other thread someone made to complain about the forum culture, including personally attacking other members - you said;
For my own guidance, I always imagine a thread as a conversation taking place in Real Life...
Sometimes, I'd continue to participate...others I would leave.

That's how forums work too. You don't just walk into someone else's house, act as though you own the place, and tell them they've been doing everything wrong and they're awful, while rearranging the furniture to suit the way YOU like things. If you want to join a group of people, whether that's on a forum or in real life, you don't walk in and immediately act like you're the boss and you know best, and everyone else is an idiot. That doesn't win friends and influence people, you know?

When people are friendly, helpful and polite, more people are willing to contribute, share, and ask for advice. Attacking them and accusing them of being terrible people because they've made a mistake - or you disagree with their opinions - discourages all of that. It drives people away, it doesn't encourage ANYONE to learn or change.

On the whole, most members devote a decent amount of their free time trying to help other members, carefully explaining cycling to people, attempting to help someone with a sick fish, or wanting to journal their progress in their own tanks. Attacking them and tearing them apart doesn't save fish. It just makes them feel attacked and defensive, and they leave, having learned nothing. It also makes the forum an unwelcoming and depressing place to visit.

You catch more flies with honey.
 

itiwhetu

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Great bit of counseling going on here. Bruce stick to who you are and what you believe. If you up set a couple of people along the way so be it, maybe they need upsetting.
 

DoubleDutch

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Great bit of counseling going on here. Bruce stick to who you are and what you believe. If you up set a couple of people along the way so be it, maybe they need upsetting.
To be honest in all years I have been on international forums all over the world I have never read a more stupid and immature reaction than this.

I think some people don't understand this isn't a place to provoke, humiliate, upset, degrade, embarrass etc. other people publicely. There are other places on the internet which seem to fullfill the urge of some people to do so, which is a shame on its own, but okay.

I am really amazed about the patience on this forum. On other forums people are banned for life for less reasons (by far) than this ridiculous, unwanted and unneeded behaviour.

I have stated earlier in a different thread that making people feel stupid en treating them that way isn't what we do here. Answer then was that the OP didn't call anyone stupid literally. That same answer probably will show now, but we all know what the intention of this thread is. Naming and shaming is even added. Unbelievable.

Stop doing so or move this poissoning behaviour to another place please. There is no space, place, need or urge to do so here.

People are searching for help / advise and not to be humiliated by some people who think they are better / higher / more knowledged / more experienced / stronger / etc etc... and trying to make that clear in a rather bizarre way. Making several people not wanted / welcome at this forum which shouldn't ever be the message.

In the normal world being straight forward is completely different than being blunt, rude and offensive for no reason at all. Naming and shaming of people is NOT DONE here (asking myself where it is btw).

In case of an argument contact mods or PM / DM people involved.

Last but not least : Nailing someone to the pillory isn't the way to make oneself feeling better. Being honest, kind, friendly, helpful, respectful etc... is. Simply try it. The world will be a better place.
 

itiwhetu

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To be honest in all years I have been on international forums all over the world I have never read a more stupid and immature reaction than this.

I think some people don't understand this isn't a place to provoke, humiliate, upset, degrade, embarrass etc. other people publicely. There are other places on the internet which seem to fullfill the urge of some people to do so, which is a shame on its own, but okay.

I am really amazed about the patience on this forum. On other forums people are banned for life for less reasons (by far) than this ridiculous, unwanted and unneeded behaviour.

I have stated earlier in a different thread that making people feel stupid en treating them that way isn't what we do here. Answer then was that the OP didn't call anyone stupid literally. That same answer probably will show now, but we all know what the intention of this thread is. Naming and shaming is even added. Unbelievable.

Stop doing so or move this poissoning behaviour to another place please. There is no space, place, need or urge to do so here.

People are searching for help / advise and not to be humiliated by some people who think they are better / higher / more knowledged / more experienced / stronger / etc etc... and trying to make that clear in a rather bizarre way. Making several people not wanted / welcome at this forum which shouldn't ever be the message.

In the normal world being straight forward is completely different than being blunt, rude and offensive for no reason at all. Naming and shaming of people is NOT DONE here (asking myself where it is btw).

In case of an argument contact mods or PM / DM people involved.

Last but not least : Nailing someone to the pillory isn't the way to make oneself feeling better. Being honest, kind, friendly, helpful, respectful etc... is. Simply try it. The world will be a better place.
An interesting interpretation of what I wrote. What do you think the members have done to Bruce in this thread.
 

wasmewasntit

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Similar to the language barriers causing misunderstandings, you will always get differing levels of patience, knowledge, methodology etc on a forum.

Its the nature of the beast and comes with the territory.

And as such people who participate in forums will occasionally verbally kill each other, get into scrapes and arguments...just as we do in life off the internet.

The thing we all have to remember is that none of us is perfect...one size does not fit all...and sometimes you have to bite the tongue til it bleeds (or fingers when typing) if someone states something that flies in the face of your own methodology or opinion.

Slack cutting....not always easy to achieve but something we all need to do sometimes.
 

DoubleDutch

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Similar to the language barriers causing misunderstandings, you will always get differing levels of patience, knowledge, methodology etc on a forum.

Its the nature of the beast and comes with the territory.

And as such people who participate in forums will occasionally verbally kill each other, get into scrapes and arguments...just as we do in life off the internet.

The thing we all have to remember is that none of us is perfect...one size does not fit all...and sometimes you have to bite the tongue til it bleeds (or fingers when typing) if someone states something that flies in the face of your own methodology or opinion.

Slack cutting....not always easy to achieve but something we all need to do sometimes.
My first ever forum to join was a UK-forum.
More friendly, fine and polite people I have never "met". Friendships from 2014 still excist.
In all those years I have never read any insults, humiliation, shaming etc etc....
 
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