HTH pool sand leeching kh

[galeslasher]

Hello again... Well, here is the natural progression!

See my previous thread for context, but the short of it is, I had play sand leeching kh so I asked for some suggestions from others of another sand that won't behave the same. Many recommend hth pool sand, since it was cheap and looked nice, I was happy to get it.

Well, egg on my face! This supposedly "100% silica" based sand is leeching kh too! So I come to ask the same question again

Is there ANY sand brand out there that WILL NOT leech kh? Is not composed of carbonates, 100% guaranteed?

I am trying to do blackwater in one tank and just generally do not want something in any of my tanks that will leech hardness of any type, but especially not alkalinity! My ph already trends high, so having kh leech is particularly bad in my situation!

Please don't recommend things if you aren't sure! I really really don't have a ton of money to throw at so many types of sand substrate for them to wind up being useless in my situation! Just trying to get this done, I don't mind paying more than I have been for the cheaper stuff if it means I 100% won't be dealing with any more hardness or alkalinity leeching! But it NEEDS to be a guarantee, not just an "eh, I'm pretty sure"

TYIA! The HTH looks lovely but I can't keep dealing with leeching, it's driving me nuts!

(Also please please please don't recommend stratum I get that it won't leech kh which is fun but it's not sand and I can't stand the way it looks/the price is insane)

((Also inb4 the questions on how I'm so sure it's the sand... Literal empty tanks with nothing but the sand, multiple tanks, and even tested in an empty container with just the sand and RODI water, interestingly, pool sand caused an instant change in the water, but HTH does take a few days, it's slower to leech but still noticable none the less, I have an increase to 3kh within 2 weeks))

 

[anewbie]

Is there anything other than the pool filter sand in hte aquarium - when i tested hth pool filter sand it did not leach at all.

Is your container plastic or glass - i know plastic will leach into ro water.

 

[galeslasher]

Is there anything other than the pool filter sand in hte aquarium - when i tested hth pool filter sand it did not leach at all.

Is your container plastic or glass - i know plastic will leach into ro water.

Not a thing in the tanks but the sand and some driftwood. RODI water has been sitting in a plastic container for weeks with no change in KH, I add the hth, suddenly within 2 days, kh is over 1 dkh. Mind you this is multiple tanks and multiple plastic containers. Like I can try glass just for the sake of it but like, the RO water is sitting at 0kh for weeks in this container with a lid, I add sand and 2 days later there's kh. Can't make sense of this at all, I know damn well the driftwood isn't leeching lolol.

 

[anewbie]

I can't help but i can say your results are not consistent with mine. Have you tried measuring the change in ec ? I have a 180 (gallon) with 3 inches of hth pool filter sand and hte ec stayed around 20 for 2 years (that is tds 10); the ec only began to rise when i added leaves. At ec 20 there is virtually nothing in the water (i realize that kh is not ec). This is esp low given the base ro water was around 10 ec.

 

[galeslasher]

I can't help but i can say your results are not consistent with mine. Have you tried measuring the change in ec ? I have a 180 (gallon) with 3 inches of hth pool filter sand and hte ec stayed around 20 for 2 years (that is tds 10); the ec only began to rise when i added leaves.

My ec is the same, 20-22 (my meter isn't very expensive so it has some error) with a TDS of 11 but my API kit says there kh now when there wasn't before
If my API test isn't good, I'd expect it to consistently ring up on my RODI water, not just once the sand gets added, right? I can test my RODI from its bucket a thousand times over and it still rings up 0 kh. strange, isn't it?

 

[anewbie]

Sounds strange to me - if the tds doesn't change then i would question that something is leaching in the water. If you leave the water sitting for a long time does the kh continue to rise ?

 

[galeslasher]

Sounds strange to me - if the tds doesn't change then i would question that something is leaching in the water. If you leave the water sitting for a long time does the kh continue to rise ?

Only if there's sand in it! I've got my vat of RODI in a lidded BRUTE trash can and it's been there for over a week with no changes at all, just pulled and checked some right now, EC 0, TDS 2 (again, margin for error) kh 0
It really does appear to be the sand. This is not super fun for me because the only sand that didn't do this was the black diamond blasting powder and I hated how that stuff looked so I don't intend to go back to it.

The play sand had an instant change, at least the hth takes a few days, but still no bueno :^(
I'm putting in some empty glass cup right now just to be 100% certain it isn't like... Something embedded in the seal of my tanks or just leeching from the plastic cups I've been using. Will report back in 3-4 days or whenever the kh develops. In that case there's no other option, it literally has to be the sand.

 

[Uberhoust]

I have tested a number of substrates over the years and I haven't ever had pool filter sand contain any carbonates. If you have a microscope or even a magnifying glass do the particles look like semi angular to round clearish glass, or are there more whiteish particles with distinct cleavage planes. Pool sand has to be quite inert to work correctly and shouldn't affect the pH of the pool water. Of course there can be packaging or processing issues but overall pool sand should be ok, I am not personally familiar with the HTH brand. Is there a possibility of left over play sand in your system? Your test described should tell you the story in the end.

 

[GaryE]

One of you is in the USA. The other is in the USA. You must live in the same neighbourhood, right?

I had to look up HTH Brand sand, and they talk about their rinsing and grading for size. They don't say anything about their sources. Just because it's in the same bag, do you think it's economically feasible to use the same sand source in California as in Rhode Island or Alaska? Sand is expensive to ship. What are the chances they rinse and grade for size regional sand sources?

I had some some trouble with sand containing impurities where I used to live, even though the bags sold in chain hardwares were from the same company. Eventually, after several tries I found a good source of neutral sand and stuck with it. So few people use it as we do that the companies really don't worry about it. Pool filter sand is supposed to be neutral though.

 

[anewbie]

One of you is in the USA. The other is in the USA. You must live in the same neighbourhood, right?

I had to look up HTH Brand sand, and they talk about their rinsing and grading for size. They don't say anything about their sources. Just because it's in the same bag, do you think it's economically feasible to use the same sand source in California as in Rhode Island or Alaska? Sand is expensive to ship. What are the chances they rinse and grade for size regional sand sources?

I had some some trouble with sand containing impurities where I used to live, even though the bags sold in chain hardwares were from the same company. Eventually, after several tries I found a good source of neutral sand and stuck with it. So few people use it as we do that the companies really don't worry about it. Pool filter sand is supposed to be neutral though.

I have a 'friend' in seattle that recommend it and have 'talked' to people who have used it in the ne without issue - i'm in the southeast so i suppose for some weird reason stuff in the mid-west might be an issue but i have my doubt. As @Uberhoust noted for its application it is best inert.

What you suggest is always possible for random sand but i find it odd that tds/ec is not changing yet kh seems to be rising.

If something were leaching you would expect a straight up curve for ec over time.

 

[galeslasher]

To be fair, we don't know the EC or TDS beyond what it is right now at 1kh, I can't test the tanks where it has climbed higher because they're planted and the results will be skewed. All I can do is continue to wait in my little experiment cups and see what happens over time.

For now, I've contacted caribesea and gotten their guarantee of sands that 100% will not alter GH or KH. naturally, they're a fair bit more expensive but it's the price I pay for living near such a carbonate rich sand gathering point I suppose.

As for the potential for leftover pool sand... Nah. I siphoned it out and dumped them upside down to get rid of it all. Theres probably like 20 grains left in them, but it doesn't matter too much, my 100% empty cup with just hth did the same thing. I'll still keep the tests going but I've decided to cut my losses with this stuff. I should've known better than to get two bags

 

[anewbie]

To be fair, we don't know the EC or TDS beyond what it is right now at 1kh, I can't test the tanks where it has climbed higher because they're planted and the results will be skewed. All I can do is continue to wait in my little experiment cups and see what happens over time.

For now, I've contacted caribesea and gotten their guarantee of sands that 100% will not alter GH or KH. naturally, they're a fair bit more expensive but it's the price I pay for living near such a carbonate rich sand gathering point I suppose.

As for the potential for leftover pool sand... Nah. I siphoned it out and dumped them upside down to get rid of it all. Theres probably like 20 grains left in them, but it doesn't matter too much, my 100% empty cup with just hth did the same thing. I'll still keep the tests going but I've decided to cut my losses with this stuff. I should've known better than to get two bags

I'm 90% sure the issue is on your side. As i said forget testing KH just test EC and if the sand is leaching it will be obvious after 2 weeks. I've tested the effect of a single tiny piece of leaf against a control test of just water and the ec easily rose 20 points in 1 week - we are talkign about a fragment less than 1/4 inch square; though the water volume wasn't that great as it was a shot glass. The control was another shot glass with just water from the same source. I've tested the various substrate as well. My discus tank which had an ec of around 20 for nearly 2 years rose to 100 when i threw in 10 leaves. If you see a noticeable rise then wait a 2nd week and see if it continue - be aware that things like temperture change will impact the measurement of a ec pen. While the impact might seem small when we are working with values below 10 it doesn't take much to show up.

-
Anyway that's my 2ct.

 

[galeslasher]

So, if I leave this stuff in an empty glass cup, literally just the sand and RODI water, and the KH still develops, while the container the RODI water is stocked in does not, is this going to be enough to convince you it's the sand and not user error lol?
I mean I've said quite a few times this hasn't happened with other substrates I've used, I just didn't like how they looked. There was actually a period when I first started out way back when that I had major issues because my tap has never had KH in it and my tanks had pH crashes because the substrate I was using was indeed not leeching KH. black diamond blasting powder didn't do this and neither did my gravel. I even had a tank that was about 30% play sand mixed with black diamond and that tank had pH crashes too because even 30% play sand wasn't enough to cause these issues. It takes quite a bit of sand to water volume for this to become an issue.

I can appreciate that you haven't had an issue with this brand and that's great I'm happy for you! But idk at some point it kinda becomes that this conversation isn't progressing very much if it's just me giving my reasonings on why it likely isn't just user error (also side note, the concept of saying the process of putting sand in a tank with water in it is even at risk of user error is absolutely sending me, this is a hilarious concept to me but naturally, only something tank keepers would have cross their mind LOL just look at us) and it not really being acknowledged or believed...
I mean ultimately my question was just, hey what brands, ANY brands are absolutely 100% guaranteed to not do this, which nobody in this thread is even able to say in their defense of hth that it's one of em. I don't even mind if I spend more, hth and play sand were budget options and they didn't work out. Too bad so sad but I'm happy to move on to a different more expensive one if it means I won't have to worry about this. For now I've landed on caribsea because their customer service said they 100% guarantee it won't do this, but I'm still open to other suggestions! I like beige, tan, even brown sand and caribsea doesn't even offer a brown, so if anybody has any recommendations for brown sand what brand it might be I'd be happy to hear it! I'm not heartbroken over spending 40 bucks on sand that didn't work out, I'll be okay! Just looking to move forward now. hope this doesn't come off as rude or anything, just wanting to move forward from the hth, it just didn't work out for me!

 

[anewbie]

So, if I leave this stuff in an empty glass cup, literally just the sand and RODI water, and the KH still develops, while the container the RODI water is stocked in does not, is this going to be enough to convince you it's the sand and not user error lol?
I mean I've said quite a few times this hasn't happened with other substrates I've used, I just didn't like how they looked. There was actually a period when I first started out way back when that I had major issues because my tap has never had KH in it and my tanks had pH crashes because the substrate I was using was indeed not leeching KH. black diamond blasting powder didn't do this and neither did my gravel. I even had a tank that was about 30% play sand mixed with black diamond and that tank had pH crashes too because even 30% play sand wasn't enough to cause these issues. It takes quite a bit of sand to water volume for this to become an issue.

I can appreciate that you haven't had an issue with this brand and that's great I'm happy for you! But idk at some point it kinda becomes that this conversation isn't progressing very much if it's just me giving my reasonings on why it likely isn't just user error (also side note, the concept of saying the process of putting sand in a tank with water in it is even at risk of user error is absolutely sending me, this is a hilarious concept to me but naturally, only something tank keepers would have cross their mind LOL just look at us) and it not really being acknowledged or believed...
I mean ultimately my question was just, hey what brands, ANY brands are absolutely 100% guaranteed to not do this, which nobody in this thread is even able to say in their defense of hth that it's one of em. I don't even mind if I spend more, hth and play sand were budget options and they didn't work out. Too bad so sad but I'm happy to move on to a different more expensive one if it means I won't have to worry about this. For now I've landed on caribsea because their customer service said they 100% guarantee it won't do this, but I'm still open to other suggestions! I like beige, tan, even brown sand and caribsea doesn't even offer a brown, so if anybody has any recommendations for brown sand what brand it might be I'd be happy to hear it! I'm not heartbroken over spending 40 bucks on sand that didn't work out, I'll be okay! Just looking to move forward now. hope this doesn't come off as rude or anything, just wanting to move forward from the hth, it just didn't work out for me!

You should test TDS or EC not kh. I keep saying EC (which is TDS*2) and you keep saying KH. Furthermore if the stuff was leaching it should keep rising. You keep saying it toggles from 0 to 1 but a week later you don't see 2 and a week after that 3 or 4 - it just stops at 1.

 

[Aiken Drum]

Have you tried the vinegar test on the sand? Carbonates and bicarbonates should result in CO2.