Fishless Cycle, Day 32 - Has It Stalled? Help/advice, Pretty Please&#3

[OldMan47]

The ammonia dosing we often do here is to start at 5 ppm dosing, reduce to around 2 ppm during the nitrite spike and raise it back up to 5 ppm when the nitrite spike has passed. Drops per day has never been a part of our regime, instead we target specific concentrations right after you dose. After one or two doses, you will know how much it takes to get to 2 ppm and any time you are at zero you could just measure out that amount to dose the tank. In almost any tank, fish wastes will amount to more than a drop a day, so we use concentrations instead. I have seen places that use drop dosing that actually say to keep doing it regardless of how high the concentration. Those places are ignoring the research that says that concentrations above 5 ppm tend to develop the wrong bacteria and that over 8 ppm the bacteria that become dominant are not ones that do well in a cycled tank with low concentrations.
We do have a writeup that I know was written some time back by RDD but we have been tweaking the advice a bit based on experiences of people that have gone through it. Our basic pattern is what he would call the add and wait method. There is a link to the thread in my signature area called fishless cycling.

 

[CherrySparkles]

Thank you so much again for your input. I read over the fishless cycle description in the link in your signature as well, and I think I've seen that basic method before. I'm being pulled in a quite a few directions with some websites saying not to force a reading once the ammonia comes to zero, and some websites saying that you should spike the ammonia up at all stages in the cycle! Many differing methods!

Regardless, I can't stop thinking that my cycle is stalled as the nitrites have read 1PPM for 20 days, and nitrates have been at 5PPM for about 18 days, in spite of constant, albeit low level, ammonia dosing on my part.

There has been absolutely no change for 20 days, except for the VERY odd DECREASE in nitrate (days 26 and 27 in the chart above), which I'm starting to think may have been an inconsistency in the test, because nitrate isn't supposed to decrease???

So I'm thinking that I'll spike the ammonia up again and see if that gets it going...

 

[waterdrop]

On our site there was, at one time, interest in both an "add daily" method and an "add&wait" method but my observation is that in recent years the "add daily" method has fallen into disfavor. Nearly everyone now uses the "Add&Wait" method outlined in the RDD article and as OM says, we feel we've tweaked it with various details, which at least make it more interesting in our opinions, if not actually faster, lol.

My recommendation would be to do a 90% water change with gravel clean (its my feeling that nitrites and nitrates may tend to hang a bit closer to the substrate and so even in a fishless cycling tank, a gravel clean is good practice when doing one of these rare "kickstart" fishless cycling water changes) and then recharge the ammonia to a level of, say, 4ppm, as measured by a liquid-reagent-based test kit.

Then begin editing in one-liners of daily results here in your thread, perhaps in your first post, that mirror the result lines you are hopefully recording in your aquarium notebook. Its important to have the trend to look at... oh, forget all that, you already have good graphs so I don't need to be saying all that! Two of the things that really help the members are if you mention whether each test was taking 12 or 24 hours after ammonia was dosed and if you include pH. (in addition to NH3, NO2 (and NO3 every now and then.)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[CherrySparkles]

The ammonia dosing we often do here is to start at 5 ppm dosing, reduce to around 2 ppm during the nitrite spike and raise it back up to 5 ppm when the nitrite spike has passed. Drops per day has never been a part of our regime, instead we target specific concentrations right after you dose. After one or two doses, you will know how much it takes to get to 2 ppm and any time you are at zero you could just measure out that amount to dose the tank. In almost any tank, fish wastes will amount to more than a drop a day, so we use concentrations instead. I have seen places that use drop dosing that actually say to keep doing it regardless of how high the concentration. Those places are ignoring the research that says that concentrations above 5 ppm tend to develop the wrong bacteria and that over 8 ppm the bacteria that become dominant are not ones that do well in a cycled tank with low concentrations.
We do have a writeup that I know was written some time back by RDD but we have been tweaking the advice a bit based on experiences of people that have gone through it. Our basic pattern is what he would call the add and wait method. There is a link to the thread in my signature area called fishless cycling.

Thank you for the very detailed information! After thinking about it, it definitely makes sense, as you said, that even one fish will produce more than one drop of ammonia per day. I'm switching over to the add and wait method to see if I can get this cycle going again! The only thing I'm going to do differently from the method on this website is to spike to 2PPM maximum (as opposed to 4-5PPM) and I'm currently adding half that amount, 1PPM since nitrites are showing up, but not processing well. I saw these specific amounts recommended for a fishless cycle for a betta, so here's hoping it works!

On our site there was, at one time, interest in both an "add daily" method and an "add&wait" method but my observation is that in recent years the "add daily" method has fallen into disfavor. Nearly everyone now uses the "Add&Wait" method outlined in the RDD article and as OM says, we feel we've tweaked it with various details, which at least make it more interesting in our opinions, if not actually faster, lol.

My recommendation would be to do a 90% water change with gravel clean (its my feeling that nitrites and nitrates may tend to hang a bit closer to the substrate and so even in a fishless cycling tank, a gravel clean is good practice when doing one of these rare "kickstart" fishless cycling water changes) and then recharge the ammonia to a level of, say, 4ppm, as measured by a liquid-reagent-based test kit.

Then begin editing in one-liners of daily results here in your thread, perhaps in your first post, that mirror the result lines you are hopefully recording in your aquarium notebook. Its important to have the trend to look at... oh, forget all that, you already have good graphs so I don't need to be saying all that! Two of the things that really help the members are if you mention whether each test was taking 12 or 24 hours after ammonia was dosed and if you include pH. (in addition to NH3, NO2 (and NO3 every now and then.)

~~waterdrop~~

Thank you for your input as well! Yesterday I started spiking the ammonia again and am now using the add and wait method as detailed on this site - if I don't see any change in the stuck nitrites, I'm going to do a water change in a few days. I'll start editing in my results as well in my first post (here's hoping this kick starts things!)

 

[fatheadminnow]

Your nitrites should process. No need to do a water change unless you have been "stuck" for a while. If you pH is okay, and you have an ammonia source in the tank, your nitrite will soon process. This second step usually takes a little longer than ammonia, just because for every 1 ppm of ammonia processed, it turns into 2.7 ppm of nitrite.

-FHM

 

[CherrySparkles]

Your nitrites should process. No need to do a water change unless you have been "stuck" for a while. If you pH is okay, and you have an ammonia source in the tank, your nitrite will soon process. This second step usually takes a little longer than ammonia, just because for every 1 ppm of ammonia processed, it turns into 2.7 ppm of nitrite.

-FHM

That's very interesting to know the rate of the conversion, thank you! Though I've never done this before, I've got a bad feeling that my nitrites are stuck... they've read 1PPM for about 30 days, despite constant (and recently increased) ammonia inputs. My nitrates haven't really budged from 5PPM either, until very recently moving up to approx. 6PPM. Does this still sound like the normal, slow progression of the nitrite consuming bacteria, or do you get the impression that it's stuck as well?

 

[fatheadminnow]

What is your pH at? Also, do you have good circulation through out the tank? If you do not, you could have "pockets" of ammonia and/or nitrite within the tank that are unable to go though the filter.

I would do a 90% water change, and dose ammonia up to 4-5 ppm. (Add & Wait method)

It does sound like that your bacteria are taking a really long time to colonize. Hang in there.

Things to check: pH is above 6.5. (8.4 is optimal for the growth of these bacteria) Water temp is up around 80F. (84F/29C is preferred) There was NO accidental additives to the water that could threaten the lives of the bacteria. Like soap on your had, hair spray/scents(i.e.febreeze) that could of gotten into the tank. Check and see if there is an "oily" surface on your water. If there is, then you have something in the tank that is not suppose to be there, and the tank should be cleaned. You do add water conditioner, right?

If your pH is good, and you know for sure there is nothing in the tank that could kill the bacteria, your cycle should not be in jeopardy.

You can read this if you like, I still need to make it better, it is far from perfect, but it will give you an idea: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=307725

-FHM

 

[CherrySparkles]

What is your pH at? Also, do you have good circulation through out the tank? If you do not, you could have "pockets" of ammonia and/or nitrite within the tank that are unable to go though the filter.

I would do a 90% water change, and dose ammonia up to 4-5 ppm. (Add & Wait method)

It does sound like that your bacteria are taking a really long time to colonize. Hang in there.

Things to check: pH is above 6.5. (8.4 is optimal for the growth of these bacteria) Water temp is up around 80F. (84F/29C is preferred) There was NO accidental additives to the water that could threaten the lives of the bacteria. Like soap on your had, hair spray/scents(i.e.febreeze) that could of gotten into the tank. Check and see if there is an "oily" surface on your water. If there is, then you have something in the tank that is not suppose to be there, and the tank should be cleaned. You do add water conditioner, right?

If your pH is good, and you know for sure there is nothing in the tank that could kill the bacteria, your cycle should not be in jeopardy.

You can read this if you like, I still need to make it better, it is far from perfect, but it will give you an idea: [URL="http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=307725"]http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=307725[/URL]

-FHM

Thank you again for the detailed info - the article that your wrote on the effects of PH was very informative! The PH in my tank has been fine so far - it's been between 7.4 and 7.8 throughout the cycle and has never crashed.

The temperature of my water is currently 86F (raised to this per advice in article by James Koga to help the bacteria grow quickly...). I'm absolutely obsessive about rinsing thoroughly any and all things that go in the tank, and I never spray anything and generally avoid use of any chemicals in the HOUSE since setting up the tank. It also has a hood to protect from debris, etc. getting in it. The surface of the water does not look at all oily.

But when you talk about circulation in the tank, I wonder... I'm preparing this tank for a betta, so I'm trying to minimize currents in the water. The only way I've done this thus far is placing a medium fake plant under the filter output. I'm not using an airstone because bettas really dislike them, from what I've heard. But my tank is an Eclipse 5 with the Bio-Wheel, so the bacteria on the wheel will at least be getting some oxygenation!

Creating more current in the water to move around any pockets of ammonia/nitrite won't really be an option for when the fish is in the tank as bettas are uber-disturbed by any current, but I'll try the big water change while we're still fishless and see if that will kick start things!

If I were to add an airstone to try to increase water movement and aeration to get the bacteria developing, would I need to keep it in the tank once the cycle was completed? Or could I just use it temporarily to get things going? I was trying to keep the conditions while cycling as similar to what they'll be when I add the fish as possible, but that might not be the best approach... So many questions! Thanks again!

 

[fatheadminnow]

If you are not going to use and airstone when you get your betta, then I would not put one in now. The only reason I suggested it is because, like I sated earlier, you could have pockets of ammonia/nitrite that are not able to get to the filter intake as easily as other parts of water in your tank.

Anyways, just do a large water change. After the water change, your bacteria may not do much processing for about 2 days, but after that things should start up again! Fingers crossed!

 

[CherrySparkles]

Ok, so I've done the water change... twice... and my cycle has decided to get a little weirder!

I tested the ammonia/PH/nitrite/nitrate in the tank, then did a 60% water change, added enough drops of ammonia to charge the level back to 1PPM (as I'm using 2PPM as my maximum, as opposed to 4 or 5) waited an hour, then tested all the parameters again. PH was the same, ammonia was obviously higher, almost 1PPM and nitrite and nitrate were EXACTLY THE SAME! Still reading 1PPM and 5PPM respectively

So I waited approx. 24 hours, tested all of them params again, and found that PH was stable, the ammonia had dropped to 0.25PPM and the nitrite and nitrate were STILL the same!

At that point, I did another water change, this one 75%, and then added 1PPM of ammonia again and tested in an hour... to find the nitrites and nitrates still were exactly the same.

I don't even understand how this is possible and am kind of at a loss! Has anyone seen this happen before???

 

[waterdrop]

I wouldn't stress over it. Its always a mistake to think biology is going to behave like chemistry, that amounts are just going to directly change from one thing to another. In biology there are complicated animals in the middle! Do you have plants? That would be one possibility, or otherwise its probably just the unpredictable inaccuracies of the nitrate test as usual. With it not being add&wait method, the feedback will not be as clear cut.

~~waterdrop~~