Cyanobacteria Questions & White Spores

[mark4785]

You're still talking about removing nutrients

I'm not talking about removing nutrients. I'm talking about the nutrients being evenly disributed to all the plants, thus depriving BGA of nutrients because the plants will have utilised it. Sometimes I'm not that good at describing exactly what I mean so I apologise for the confusion!

 

[mark4785]

I've been dosing the aquarium with 4ml of phosphate (Easylife Fosfo) and 7-8ml Nitrate (Easylife Nitro) along with 3-4 ml of iron and potassium etc (contained in Easylife Profito).

I bought a Aqua one internal filter which has a maxium flow rate of 1200 litres. This is switched on 24/7. I also run the powerhead for 6 or more hours when the fluorescent lights are on. The Cayman 05 filter is also in there still.

Theres not much of an improvement with the Cyanobacteria despite these changes. The only thing I haven't had time to do is frequent water changes; I'm often finding that tens of thousands (or more) of very fine white strands are floating in the water and they are so small that they are going straight through the filter systems. The strands will come out of nowhere 2-3 hours after the aquarium fluorescent lights come on and they only way to get rid of them is physical 60% water changes.

So in summary, here's what I've changed:

- Dosing more plant nutrients (mainly nitrate which supposedly triggers cyanobacteria)
- Increased flow dramatically.
- Increase c02 content resulting in green drop-checker solution at lights on.
- Trying to do more water changes to get rid of what look like 'bacterial spores'??!!
- Cleaning as much cyanobacteria from plant leaves and virtually all other surfaces in tank.

Things left to try:

- Implementing strong UV light.

 

[SuperColey1]

Things left to try:

**Find out why Ph rises in tank???

Something funny going on there.

Adding more nitrate doesn't trigger Cyano. You can find articles that say it does just as you can find articles saying it doesn't. Most people these days accept the latter but there will always be some who will maintain what the decade+ articles said.

I would just keep cleaning and eventually it should cease.

Still have no idea on the white strands. bacterial blooms are usually microscopic and look more like cloudy water.

AC

 

[coldcazzie]

I know what you mean about the fine white strands floating in the water - I've had them too and they are very odd. No idea what they are but water changes seem to get rid.

 

[mark4785]

Adding more nitrate doesn't trigger Cyano. You can find articles that say it does just as you can find articles saying it doesn't. Most people these days accept the latter but there will always be some who will maintain what the decade+ articles said.

I was saying I've dosed more nitrates because a lack of nitrate supposedly can cause cyanobacteria to start fixing nitrogen from the atmosphere.

**Find out why Ph rises in tank???

Something funny going on there.

The substrate doesn't raise the PH. The company of the product clarified this to me.
Bog wood lowers PH.
Only other inanimate things in the aquarium are water, plants and electrical appliances.

I've put the water PH rise down to a lot of carbonic acid in the tap water which eventually escapes due to more water agitation when introduced into the aquarium.

 

[mark4785]

Just thought I'd post up some images of the current state of the aquarium. The conditions haven't improved; cyanobacteria spreads rapidly in the water which as resulted in the substrate, glass and plants being covered in it.

Picture 1; cyanobacteria covering plant leaves near water surface:

Picture 2; cyanobacteria covering entire piece of bog wood:

Picture 3; cyanobacteria forming in substrate:

Pictures 5 & 6: cyanobacteria stuck to in-take grills:

I keep cleaning the aquarium but somehow the cyanobacteria grows back, even after doing a thorough clean out, a 60% water change, followed by a 72 hour blackout.

I have white spores in the aquarium that are virtually impossible to remove.

There is also now a stench coming from the decomposing cyanobacteria that is getting caught up in the 1200 LPH internal.

What is the point in me continuing with this tank? I can't keep cleaning it out at the rate that i'm currently doing as it will take time that is needed elsewhere and the cleaning is starting to become a bit of a wasted objective since it never removes all of the cyano from the aquarium.

 

[Biulu]

I am sorry about this and understand your frustration. Clearly the root of the problem has not yet been found. Is your new filter with the UV working?

What I have been reading (thanks God, I never experienced this myself) is that it is due to having too much phosphorus in your tank. This can be brought into your tank either through your tap water, or fish food. I don't think we have been going down that rout already, have we? I know we have been talking in this thread about fish food, but I can't remember if we talked about phosphorus levels in your tap water.

There seem to be phosphorus removing media for your filter, but nobody is detailling what these are.

 

[mark4785]

I am sorry about this and understand your frustration. Clearly the root of the problem has not yet been found. Is your new filter with the UV working?

What I have been reading (thanks God, I never experienced this myself) is that it is due to having too much phosphorus in your tank. This can be brought into your tank either through your tap water, or fish food. I don't think we have been going down that rout already, have we? I know we have been talking in this thread about fish food, but I can't remember if we talked about phosphorus levels in your tap water.

There seem to be phosphorus removing media for your filter, but nobody is detailling what these are.

Hi,

The internal filter with the UV-C is still on it's way to me via Royal Mail post. It's been delayed due to the weather conditions here. I did manage to get a different filter while i'm waiting which is called 'Aqua one' and has a internal flow rate of 1200 LPH. I've spent 2 hours cleaning everything in the tank this evening; I've loosened bits of cyanobactera from the glass, appliances, leaves, substrate, decor and pushed it to the in-take grills of the Aqua one filter.

I'm a little bit baffled as to what is causing it. I've been to multiple sources on the web which suggest that the following things can cause cyano:

1. Low nitrate levels (corrected this)
2. Lack of flow (corrected)
3. Ammonium (not corrected as some sources tell me cyano releases ammonia and other toxins after fixing nitrogen from the atmosphere; the heterocyst plays some function in achieving this)
4. Very high temperatures with high light (Can't correct this)

Supercoley has input a lot into this friend and based on what he is saying I don't think he'd agree that phosphate is causing the cyanobacteria. He and others seem to suggest that a lot of nutrients is less detrimental than applying a 'normal' nutrient concentration or not enough.

However, I've been starting to think that there may be an exception to this rule of providing excess nutrients. I think it is detrimental to dose excess plant nutrients were algae or bacteria has taken hold of the plants and is choking them and the environment in which the algae/bacteria grows does not contain that many plants to utilise the excess nutrients. My aquarium isn't populated very much with plants so I find it conceivable that any nutrients not used up by the plants will be used by other undesirable things. I think this is especially the case when cyanobacteria is present as it grows really quickly (implying it will source nutrients fast) and even moves itself to areas where it can best utilise the nutrients (i.e. near the surface where most of the light is).

Here is a picture of the tank post-cleaning:

 

[Biulu]

An excess of nutrients shouldn't be a problem as long as they are all in excess. I just read another article, mentioning everything you and others have said already, but again they look at phospate levels. ANd again they don't tell you how to lower them. I would look into it...

 

[mark4785]

An excess of nutrients shouldn't be a problem as long as they are all in excess. I just read another article, mentioning everything you and others have said already, but again they look at phospate levels. ANd again they don't tell you how to lower them. I would look into it...

For me, lowering my phosphate level can be corrected by doing a water change. I know you can get resins/filter media that absorb phosphate but I'm not sure how thats healthy for a planted aquarium.

One thing that I ought to mention about cyanobacteria, which seems consistent between several sources, is that it will grow in a range of conditions as it is very adaptable. So this instantly got me thinking that cyanobacteria will grow in all conditions except where there is either absolutely no nutrients or very cold water temperatures. A 'cold nutrientless' aquarium is not something I'm going to want to work towards with tropical fish which are fed food containing phosphate and a source of nitrogen! It seems the only way to remove it in the conditions of my tank is to physically remove it and rely on the anti-bacterial action of a UV-C light (something not available to me yet).

 

[SuperColey1]

Indeed, we haven't mentioned phosphorus due to the fact that if you were to remove the phosphate )and thus the phosphirus) then the plants will starve and cause more of an issue.

I remember in the first thread of yours I read the lights were being questioned. You have sen the effect of the blackout hence now see that light plays a major part here.

As for the Ph rise, I am no scientist but the explanation you offer doesn't seem real to me.

There would be loads of people in your water supply region with the same problem if true. I really do think there may be something else at play here. If your tap is high in something then the tap should be the 'peak' a build up shouldn't matter that much.

I can sympathise with the cleaning. If I had these problems I would feel the same. Maybe I would have already given up because I am not really one to fight things I can't beat for too long. I am incredibly competitive and only p;ay sports I am very good at. Those I am only average at I do not play, i watch.

Same as with this game really. If I had found I couldn't at least get something reasonable going I would've probably got rid and tried the next thing. lol So I credit you for patience here and I am sure you want to get to the bottom of the cause.

I would definately rule out excess nutrient. You now have the filtration and turnover so that is addressed too.

CO2 needs to be improved but can wait.

Temperature and light are 2 factors but secondary. Both speed up the process here however they also speed up the plant process. If you get it right the plants will grow and the algae/Cyano will disappear without changing light and heat.

You can of course lower the heat and light but that will only slow the process down. It will not cure it, just make it easier to handle and easier to beat. Easier to beat in that while it the problem progresses more slowly. the cause can be corrected and results seen easier.

So that leaves the Ph rise and the CO2. The CO2 is not IMO going to be cause for the Cyano however the Ph rise should not be happening. There must be something in that tank that is raising the Tap Ph. I doubt very much that there is a build up of comething in the tap water that is causing that. It must be something in the tank that is raising the Ph and I assume KH.

If we can get to the bottom of the Ph rise then we may be very close to turning the corner at which point all that should be left to do is sort out the CO2 and away you go.

AC

 

[Biulu]

What about the substrate or ornaments? Have we looked into that? If they are not inert, these could be highering the pH, right?

 

[mark4785]

What about the substrate or ornaments? Have we looked into that? If they are not inert, these could be highering the pH, right?

I've queried the PH rise in a separate topic several months ago.

Initially the tank contained several natural fluorite rocks (blue coloured) which I found to be raising the PH to 8.2. I removed them all over 4 months ago.

I noticed the PH was still rising so I queried the substrate. It's called 'Caribsea Instant aquarium - torpedo beach' sand. I contacted caribsea to ask about whether it induces alkaline water, here is a copy of their email response:

"Mark,

All of our Instant Aquarium substrates, including Torpedo Beach, are pH neutral. You are correct that many marine sands will influence pH but this product is different from them. Unfortunately at this time we do not have a UK product support line. You can email me directly for best results.

Thanks,
Jud McCracken
Product Support,
CaribSea, Inc.
772-461-1113 ext 14
jud@caribsea.com"

The only other ornaments in the water are pieces of bog wood which either don't influence the PH level or lower it.

 

[mark4785]

It must be something in the tank that is raising the Ph and I assume KH.

The KH level has been between 4-5 dKH over the last 6 months so thats pretty constant. I'd expect to see a KH of 9-10 if there was something in there that raises total alkalinity.

The PH really isn't an issue, especially if it's not bringing about cyanobacteria, which is the real issue. The important thing to remember is the PH stays between 7.2 and 7.4 while I have the c02 system running and the PH hasn't risen to 8.2 in over 2 months.

 

[Biulu]

Hmmm, it looks like we are running out of options here. At least I am afraid I do not have other suggestions. I read in one article that somebody had been doing cleaning and water changes during several months before they got rid of it. They blamed it on the nitrates, but again, we have already looked into that.