Cyanobacteria Questions & White Spores

[SuperColey1]

I don't know what a 'herb/jewellery' scale is. What exactly should I be looking for to be putting into the distilled water? I understand what macro means (short for macro-nutrient) but what is a trace?

The digital scales that measure in 0.1g increments. Normallu up to 150g max or so. Herb is a 'tactfully' chosen word for their most common usage!!!

Trace is micros. the elements that are only used in very very small quantities. i.e. just a trace.

Not distilled water, DI water (De-ionised). The stuff they use in forklift batteries.

Detailed in the EI method and other methods. You make 1 bottle with a quantity of KNO3 and KH2PO4. Another bottle with the traces/micros. You dose them either daily or alternately etc.

But you said the Seachem fert contains a short-lasting chelate which may not last long enough for the plant to utilise it. How many mls of TPN+ or Seachem would YOU be looking to dose in MY tank if you OWNED it?

I went into the chelations to explain why Iron test kit readings can be very misleading. I would suggest the Seachem is working fine for use. However if you were to go the powder/solution route then you would get EDTA in the trace more than likely. for MY use with heavy plant load and high uptake I personally add DTPA to cover all bases. The topic went a bit off course with the chelating discussion. It was purely to detail why I wouldn't go by an iron test reading.

On TPN+ I would be dosing in mine circa 10ml a day. In yours probably 4 or a little less. I wouldn't be worried about overdosing with it though. We need to get you away from the nutrients are dangerous way of thinking as they aren't anywhere near at the levels we are dosing even if some of us do add much more than needed.

The 'encouraging conditions' are lack of flow and not enough nutrients from what I understand? The guessing-game I apply when trying to work out how much macro/micro nutrients I need to apply is the obvious cause of disproportionate level of available nutrients in relation to the plant's requirements. So, what exactly constitutes a proportionate level? Is the dosing of nutrients correct simply by noting that algae growth is more limited?

Forget proportionate. That leads to micro managing and getting very very technical. Plants grow, as they grow they consume more. WE don't want to be testing daily and increasing as they grow, decreasing as we prune etc. We want ease and therefore we add excess and don't worry about toxicity. 50% water changes will dilute any accumulation done weekly. The 'obvious' is wrong in this case. You would need a Lamotte test set or better and that is money better spent on other thngs.

It's the API branded test kit you know, lol. Don't get the impression that I'm using interpet's master test kit which is highly inaccurate and has been recalled once or twice.

Still a hobby kit. I wouldn't trust it myself. I have an API kit in my cupboard but not used it since a week or so after I first bought it 4 years ago. the box that it (and it's compatriots are in) makes a good shelf for some other things though.

Wikipedia seems to refer to cyanobacteria has part bacteria part algae, but the means of eradication are to be distinguished from the means of eradication of algae.

It is a photosynthesising bacteria and there are many forms of it. Remember Wiki is written by normal people and quite often wrong. It isn't an algae but always seem to be described as such.

Ok, point taken there. I didn't think people were that tricky to be honest.

Its such nasty things as ego, pride and credibility. Some who struggle don't want others to see they struggle. Others aren't bothered and the shots for competitions are after a mammoth clean up. So some of us are interested more in the plant/gardening getting everything right. Others are after the praise and all that goes with it. Some are after both. For me personally if I struggle with something I have the pictures up and am asking WHY? It does not interest me to present myself as something I am not. I learn nothing that way.

Would it be worth me putting a separate internal filter into the aquarium; preferably a smaller filter but with high performance in terms of the LPH rate? Not sure if this would cause a bit of issues for the beneficial bacteria in the other established filter.

You could but don't worry about the bacteia. Bacteria are increasing decreasing all the time as they encounter dips and troughs in their food as the tank progresses. I wouldn't bother with another internal though. Seems pointless to clutter a tank up with 2 internals when you could go to the next step and get a cheap external.

If you want to remain with internals I would replace the 350lph with a 700lph rather than have 2 350lphs.

The PH is 7.4 out of the tap. The c02 system maintains it at 7.4, sometimes taking it down to 7.2. Without the c02 system it goes to 8.4 over a 4 day period.

We came across this in another thread of yours. Ph should not rise in the tank like that. CO2 should be bring the tap down from 7.4 to 6.4ish at30ppm (the targeted ideal) Your Ph should not be rising that much. This may be a seperate issue that needs addressing.

Hopefully you mean ammonium?

Nope I mean ammonia. ammonia is the algae trigger. localised amounts that are far too small to give readings on a hobby kit will still be present in the tank. Such things as a slight bit of damage to a plant, dead or defficient leaves etc will produce small amounts of algae whilst not appearing to be a problem with the plant.

I think i've always expected there to be some algae present, but when I get algae it's horrific. It looks like gravy has been placed on all the plant leaves. Thats what I want to avoid and I'll see if I can eradicate it by addressing the flow issues.

Same with mine. Took me a year-a year and a half of tinkering and altering things to remove the algae. Was never horrific but substantial and annoying. These days there are many more peopl who are not following the old myths and therefore there is more help to address the problems. Back then people were still chasing phosphates and excess nutrients etc. The amount of people who knew this to be false was smaller than now. It is basically becoming the mainstream now.

Therefore we forgot about excesses being the problem and actually increased rather than trying to micro manage. Then we moved onto flow and CO2 and the problems started to recede.

I would personally get the Cayman on ebay and buy either an internal or external of much higher output. The Nano can aid something around the 700lph mark.

Then you need to find out why your water is rising in Ph. Something in the tank is causing that unless the water has so much CO2 in it from the tap that it is already 1ph below its actual which I very much doubt. I have been wrong before though.

CO2 definately needs upping. wether you use a solenoid or not it needs to be light green at lights on. Doesn't matter what colour it goes to after a few hours. Those first few hours are all important. After that the plants won't care too much. Some will only run their CO2 for the hour preceding and then the first 4 or 5 hours.

AC

 

[mark4785]

Thank you for your reply.

I think the internal filters are more appealing to be honest. If there was any issues with an external filter while out of the house and it sprung a leak that would be probably the most traumatic incident i'd have to endure to date..

So I'm looking for some very compact internals at the moment.

When I've completed the blackout you suggested I use around 4 ml of TPN+ per day. Do you know what this would equate to in terms of Easylifes':

- Profito
- Nitro
- Ferro (Is this necessary? seems to be a variation of profito)
- Fosfo

edit: also, in terms of additional filtration, should I be looking to avoid internal filters with spray bars or other features which dramatically increase water agitation? I know increased oxygen is a good idea but will it cause c02 to leave the aquarium much quicker?

Thanks again for all your advice, it's very much appreciated.

 

[Biulu]

I asked Sera which chelater they used in their florena product, and they got back to me after 2 days! Very good service! They are using EDTA, so I will definitively switch after having finished the Seachem flourish. Even if I won't see immediate results, it will still be more efficient...

 

[ian]

I have fiddled about with the dosing on the Easylife range and i'm now dosing 6ml PO4 and 5ml N03, every other day and 5ml of Profito on the day that the others arn't dosed. So if your tank was my tank, i would be dosing 4ml P04 and 2.5-3ml of N03, then 2.5 of Profito. Don't be frightened to up the dosing a little if thing continue to go downhill.

 

[mark4785]

I have fiddled about with the dosing on the Easylife range and i'm now dosing 6ml PO4 and 5ml N03, every other day and 5ml of Profito on the day that the others arn't dosed. So if your tank was my tank, i would be dosing 4ml P04 and 2.5-3ml of N03, then 2.5 of Profito. Don't be frightened to up the dosing a little if thing continue to go downhill.

Thank you for that information. I'll definitely refer to your post when I resume nutrient dosing .

I have been browsing eBay looking for the best internal filter. I'm quite impressed with this Eheim Biopower Filter because it's quite a new product, it's compact and it has a flow rate of up to 650 LPH. I also found the Clearseal 700 Internal Filter which is even more compact and it's flow rate is 700LPH.

One thing that struck my eye, but which I'm not too sure about investing in, is this unbranded filter which comes with an integrated UV light to kill bacteria/pathogens etc but only has a water flow rate of around 400 LPH. My guess is a UV light would be advantageous in getting rid of cyanobacteria? I'd rather ask that question here rather than asking the seller of the product as they will probably not be 100% honest with me.

Mark.

 

[coldcazzie]

The filter I have bought and am (still!) waiting for has a UV steriliser on it. I am honestly very tempted to use it until the BGA disappears and then stop again. I know as AC has said that if you do not treat the cause then it will return, but I am convinced that the problem stemmed predominantly from low nitrates in my case, as it only started when I upped the cleaning and became slightly obsessed with keeping the ntirates as low as possible. When my nitrates were higher (40ppm minimum) I had no issues at all. The problem is now it's taken hold I cant shake it, so maybe the UV filter will finally knock it on the head. That's my hope. If it fails then I'm at a loss. Maybe it's not the right move to make, but the blackouts do not seem to be working (although the jury is still out on the latest one) and frankly I'm getting fed up of having fish I cant see, and I'm reluctant to try erythromycin, although I may consider it as a final last resort if nothing else works.

I thought fishkeeping was supposed to be fun and relaxing. I seem to spend more time stressing over the fishtank than I do over my own kids!

 

[mbsqw1d]

edit: also, in terms of additional filtration, should I be looking to avoid internal filters with spray bars or other features which dramatically increase water agitation? I know increased oxygen is a good idea but will it cause c02 to leave the aquarium much quicker?

A spray bar is important on a planted tank, also, when you do get a larger filter.. you'll notice the higher power and the larger flow/movement of water. Your tank becomes somewhat of a whirlpool! So a spraybar prevents this and allows you to direct the flow across the tank. (if you end up getting a fluval plus.. I do believe AC has a spare spraybar.... )

And no the spraybar does not have to literally spray the water and create bubbles, but can be positioned more underwater enough to create a ripple on the water surface

MB

 

[SuperColey1]

When I've completed the blackout you suggested I use around 4 ml of TPN+ per day. Do you know what this would equate to in terms of Easylifes':

- Profito
- Nitro
- Ferro (Is this necessary? seems to be a variation of profito)
- Fosfo

No idea on what each equates to. Easylife don't tell us what is in their product. Ferro is their 'iron' supplement.

edit: also, in terms of additional filtration, should I be looking to avoid internal filters with spray bars or other features which dramatically increase water agitation? I know increased oxygen is a good idea but will it cause c02 to leave the aquarium much quicker?

Spray bar or standard output is optional to the user. spraybar tends to be easier to get better even distribution than a single output.

You should be resuming nutrient dosing already.

I have been browsing eBay looking for the best internal filter. I'm quite impressed with this Eheim Biopower Filter because it's quite a new product, it's compact and it has a flow rate of up to 650 LPH. I also found the Clearseal 700 Internal Filter which is even more compact and it's flow rate is 700LPH.

One thing that struck my eye, but which I'm not too sure about investing in, is this unbranded filter which comes with an integrated UV light to kill bacteria/pathogens etc but only has a water flow rate of around 400 LPH. My guess is a UV light would be advantageous in getting rid of cyanobacteria? I'd rather ask that question here rather than asking the seller of the product as they will probably not be 100% honest with me.

UV is advantageous but when that unit says it is a filter and UV it is in essence just the UV with a powerhead to draw water into and out of it. The filter suggestion is just that on the intake there is a small piece of sponge.

FRF aren't unbranded. They are quite common but thoseunits aren't the best really. however not much other option if you do want UV and only want internal. It will kill free floating parasites, algae and bacteria but not anything that is 'hosted'. Meaning if a pasite is on the fish then obviously it doesn't pass theough the UV, If the algae is already on the plant then it doesn't pass through the UV. etc. So it will limit future problems but not the stuff already attached to a host.

The Eheim filter is very pricey for what it is. The Interpet one will be fine. Similar to the Fluval 3+ If internal is a definte requirement I would get rid of the Cascade and look for the next size up of the Interpet/Fluval. So something in the 1000 area. I can't see a point especially aesthetically in having 2 filters in the tank taking up space when you can have 1.

but I am convinced that the problem stemmed predominantly from low nitrates in my case, as it only started when I upped the cleaning and became slightly obsessed with keeping the ntirates as low as possible. When my nitrates were higher (40ppm minimum) I had no issues at all. The problem is now it's taken hold I cant shake it.

Then why not return to previous routine before you got problems?

edit: also, in terms of additional filtration, should I be looking to avoid internal filters with spray bars or other features which dramatically increase water agitation? I know increased oxygen is a good idea but will it cause c02 to leave the aquarium much quicker?

You put the apraybar under the water. about an inch. It will create a ripple. Don't worry about losing gas or surface rippel. That is a factor with DIY etc where CO2 is limited and therefore it is hard to stay up to good levels. You have pressurised and you can compensate for the loss thus getting more O in whilst using a little more CO2 to maintain levels.


AC

 

[coldcazzie]

but I am convinced that the problem stemmed predominantly from low nitrates in my case, as it only started when I upped the cleaning and became slightly obsessed with keeping the ntirates as low as possible. When my nitrates were higher (40ppm minimum) I had no issues at all. The problem is now it's taken hold I cant shake it.

Then why not return to previous routine before you got problems?

AC

I will be doing. I used to water change about once a month, when I remembered. Currently, if I don't water change for 10 days, then the BGA is everywhere. Once it's gone I'll be going back to how I was doing before, but it's not gone yet. No good deed goes unpunished eh?

Would there be any contra-indications to do with dosing ferts and not doing water changes quite so often to reset the params? I'm guessing not, from your comment about a planted tank not having w/c for over a year! While I'd love to do that, I'm reluctant to leave it that long while I'm still trying to iron out the kinks.

The issue I'm having at the moment is that low nitrates may have caused the BGA problem in the first place, but high nitrates are not solving it. While they may prevent it returning once it's gone, they don't seem to be doing a right lot towards actually fixing it. Maybe I'm not dosing enough. I'm dose about 120ml twice a week (tank is 47.5x16x16 of actual swimming space, which is around 195L, not taking in acount any displacement for the decor, so if 5ml per 100L = 5ppm then 120ml = just over 30ppm).

 

[SuperColey1]

Would there be any contra-indications to do with dosing ferts and not doing water changes quite so often to reset the params? I'm guessing not, from your comment about a planted tank not having w/c for over a year! While I'd love to do that, I'm reluctant to leave it that long while I'm still trying to iron out the kinks.

There are other dosing methods out there that still work with dry powders. some are leaner and require lower water changes etc.

PMDD+PO4 - lean dosing

Well unfortunately I am not the one to really give advice on BGA. I can pass on information that I know is good but it's not something I've ever encountered (fingers crossed.)


Mark If you want to see Tom Barr (aka Plantbrain) in action one of his threads on here just popped up on the first page of the forum and reminded me.

This is why I say he is the man to listen to. The link below is fora massive tank. Much harder to get things right in but you'll see as it goes along just what can be done and how high nitrates, PO4 CO2 is not a problem. This tank has loads of stunning discus in:

The Behemoth Tank




AC

 

[ian]

^^I never get fed up of seeing that tank. There is always something different to see everytime i look at the pics.

 

[mark4785]

The Eheim filter is very pricey for what it is. The Interpet one will be fine. Similar to the Fluval 3+ If internal is a definte requirement I would get rid of the Cascade and look for the next size up of the Interpet/Fluval. So something in the 1000 area. I can't see a point especially aesthetically in having 2 filters in the tank taking up space when you can have 1.

Well I was wanting to use 2 filters to avoid having to remove the current inadequate filtration (Cayman 05 filter) as I'm not so sure the Cayman filter media will fit inside another branded filter system. I'm sure some of the beneficial bacteria is actually on the inner walls of the filtration system too.

In other words, I don't want to disrupt and don't have the time to correct a disruption to a perfectly working nitrogen cycle.

Are you saying this Interpet filter would be an ideal option?

You should be resuming nutrient dosing already.

So I should be dosing now as though the fluorescent lights are on, with exception of any c02-related things?

 

[Biulu]

Why don't you buy 1 adequate filter and let it run alongside your Cayman for some weeks to ensure you get enough bacteria in your new filter, and then you remove it?

I have no experience with interpet, so can't comment on this brand.

 

[mark4785]

Why don't you buy 1 adequate filter and let it run alongside your Cayman for some weeks to ensure you get enough bacteria in your new filter, and then you remove it?

I have no experience with interpet, so can't comment on this brand.

Well I thought of that but i'm not sure how that would work since the biological action of my Cayman will mask the abilities of my new filter system; in other words I won't know when I've got to the end of my fishl-in cycle or even if it is progressing in the right direction within the new filter.

 

[Biulu]

If you have ceramic rings or these plastic balls in your Cayman, you could also transfer them. Many people are either 'seeding' (transferring mature media to another filter) or running 2 filters alongside each other.

I wouldn't worry too much with getting a new cycle if you are properly planted; the plants will take up all the excess nutrients before it can be converted into ammonia. For that reason you can instantly stock your tank if you have it heavily planted.

I planted heavily and immediately put in fish, and haven't had any problems.