Cyanobacteria Questions & White Spores

[mark4785]

I've been rigorously testing the water, ensuring phosphates, iron and potassium concentrations don't get too high. I'm still waiting for the powerhead to arrive, and whilst waiting for it I've been told my dwarf suckermouth fish might be small enough to get sucked through the appliances' intake grill which would almost certainly kill it.

So that means there's only one thing left to try; blackout.

I've been thinking about the best way to conduct a blackout; could someone please appraise my idea which I've set out below?

- Conduct 40-50% water change to remove free-floating white spores (I've photographed these above and nobody seems to know what they are) and remove as much BGA as possible.
- Cover all sides of aquarium with as many black bin liners as possible to stop light getting in.
- Leave bin liner on for 4 days.
- Every two days, briefly open lid and sink a small cat fish pellet down to substrate as a source of food and nitrogen for the filter bacteria. By small I mean one quarter of a half-penny.

What should I expect to have to do after the blackout? Presumably I don't feed the fish as normal (2-3 times a day) until the filter bacteria can get back to coping with that extent of waste addition again??

 

[SuperColey1]

I assume a 'dwarf suckermouth catfish is an Oto? No idea really on that.

- Conduct 40-50% water change to remove free-floating white spores (I've photographed these above and nobody seems to know what they are) and remove as much BGA as possible.

Can't see what the white bits are, the pic is a little blurry, not really clear enough. Water change is a good idea.

- Cover all sides of aquarium with as many black bin liners as possible to stop light getting in.

Yep - Good

- Leave bin liner on for 4 days.

Yep - Good

Every two days, briefly open lid and sink a small cat fish pellet down to substrate as a source of food and nitrogen for the filter bacteria. By small I mean one quarter of a half-penny.

Nope Why add food? 4 days is fine for fish to go without food. They may even nibble on some algae if they get hungry. Fish still produce waste in this 4 day period so why the need to add food? Just leave it, no peeking and then take it off when finished.

What to expect when you've finished? Different for all setups I'm afraid. Some see minor improvements, some see a complete transformation. Will help you more if you are disciplined and leave the tank wrapped up for 4 days and not interfere at all.

Stop worrying about the filter bacteria. When you open the tank up do a water change syphoning up any algae or detritus that has died and as much slime that you can see and then feed/dose as if nothing had happened. Just continue as before albeit taking into consideration that something needs altering to stop the BGA coming back.

Remember that filter colonies multiply very very quickly and you also have the added filtration of plants!!!

AC

 

[coldcazzie]

Agreed on the feeding - the fish don't need feeding 2-3 times a day anyway. Mine don't get fed that much - sometimes I go a few days where I feed them everyday, sometimes I forget and don't feed them for a week, and anywhere inbetwee. On average they get fed about once every 2-4 days. The only reason to feed more often than that is to put money in the pockets of the companies that make the food, or alternatively if they are fry, or adults being conditioned for breeding. The fish will not be harmed by going 4 days with no food. It may even do them some good - like a detox for a human. You'll do more harm than good by opening the lid.

 

[mark4785]

Ok thanks for the feedback Supercoley and Coldcazzie.

I'm going to start the blackout tomorrow as I've been in A&E with a low blood pressure issue all day and so feel a bit drained today.

Mark.

 

[mark4785]

All of the aquarium's sides have 2 layers of bin liner on and theres absolutely no light getting in, and I haven't peeked at them to see how depressed they look!

It has been on for 2 days now (placed it around the aquarium on the 17/11/10 in the evening). I'm going to wait 2 more days and then uncover it all, hopefully the BGA bacteria will be completely dead by then.

 

[mark4785]

Just been doing some research into BGA (cyanobacteria) and found this statement:

"Heterocysts are specialized nitrogen-fixing cells formed by some filamentous cyanobacteria, such as Nostoc punctiforme, Cylindrospermum stagnale and Anabaena sperica, during nitrogen starvation. They fix nitrogen from dinitrogen (N2) in the air using the enzyme nitrogenase, in order to provide the cells in the filament with nitrogen for biosynthesis. Nitrogenase is inactivated by oxygen, so the heterocyst must create a microanaerobic environment. The heterocysts' unique structure and physiology require a global change in gene expression. For example, heterocysts:

* produce three additional cell walls, including one of glycolipid that forms a hydrophobic barrier to oxygen
* produce nitrogenase and other proteins involved in nitrogen fixation
* degrade photosystem II, which produces oxygen
* up-regulate glycolytic enzymes
* produce proteins that scavenge any remaining oxygen"

So, if the heterocysts have the function of obtaining nitrogen from the air, what happens if a source of nitrogen is in the water? Would the heterocyst stop working and thus kill cyanobacteria?

The statement more or less confirms that either my low nitrate level has allowed the heterocyst to demand nitrogen which has prompted cyanobacteria to grow/

OR

The heterocyst jumped into action when I removed the high amount of ammonium (another source of nitrogen) that the TPN+ put into the water a few days before I noticed a bluey-green algae. It does say above that the heterocyst has a function of nitrogen-fixing when nitrogen/ammonium starvation occurs.

What does everybody think about that explanation? I'm a bit confused about the statement above as other people who I've met have explained that BGA originates or starts developing in dirty substrate. Surely nitrogen levels are high in the substrate which would not favour the function of the heterocyst?


Edit: Found this just now:

"The mechanism of controlling heterocysts is thought to involve the diffusion of an inhibitor of differentiation called patS. Heterocyst formation is inhibited in the presence of a fixed nitrogen source, such as ammonium or nitrate. Heterocyst maintenance is dependent on an enzyme called hetN. The bacteria may also enter a symbiotic relationship with certain plants. In such a relationship, the bacteria do not respond to the availability of nitrogen, but to signals produced by the plant."

Does that mean cyanobacteria can live off of my plants in replace of utilising nitrogen?

 

[dayzofspeed]

i have used the blackout method with an outbreak of BGA in the past and i have to say it was very successful.i left the tank blacked out for 72 hours didnt feed or peek at all, so good luck

 

[mark4785]

i have used the blackout method with an outbreak of BGA in the past and i have to say it was very successful.i left the tank blacked out for 72 hours didnt feed or peek at all, so good luck

Oh thats great. How were your plants after the blackout, assuming you have some?

BGA isn't a nice a bacteria by the sounds of it. One internet source states it can cause death or motor neurone syndrome if exposed to a certain strain of it..

 

[SuperColey1]

I don't know the science nor any research into it but there are many different forms of Cyano and most cannot fix H2. Some can.

It doesn't harm the plants, just lives on them. I guess that statement is meaning it can 'read' signs form the plants rather than the water in this case.

Don' worry about your fish. They will be happier now than they are with light ~Most fish are much more active in the nightime IME.

On the Cyano toxicity, it generally isn't a problem until it starts decaying. Then it is toxic to aquatic life. Hence a good 50-60% water change or 2 straight after you remove the coverings.

AC

 

[mark4785]

I don't know the science nor any research into it but there are many different forms of Cyano and most cannot fix H2. Some can.

It doesn't harm the plants, just lives on them. I guess that statement is meaning it can 'read' signs form the plants rather than the water in this case.

Don' worry about your fish. They will be happier now than they are with light ~Most fish are much more active in the nightime IME.

On the Cyano toxicity, it generally isn't a problem until it starts decaying. Then it is toxic to aquatic life. Hence a good 50-60% water change or 2 straight after you remove the coverings.

AC

I have uncovered the tank. All of the fish looked quite well; however my black neon tetras were almost completely white and my dwarf neon rainbowfish was a dark blue. GBR was tired looking and his colours were not and are still not as vibrant.

Most of the cyanobacteria is gone but there are threads of it hanging from some of the leaves which probably means I'll need to do another blackout to finish it off soon. I did a 40% water change because the GBR was flicking repeatedly; I think it would be reasonable to stay he was responding to the toxins of the cyanobacteria by flicking? My water parameters are as follows: 0 ppm free ammonia, traces of ammonium, nitrite 0 ppm, nitrate 20 ppm so I doubt it's the water causing the flicking.

One thing that is different since the uncovering is the fact that diatoms and algae are not growing on the glass. In addition, iron is being absorbed VERY quickly by, presumably, the plants; hence the reason why the algae is struggling to grow?

Sorry to be a bit random in my response but, can I eradicate cyanobacteria purely with almond leaves or it's extract? I've read into them having anti-bacteria/fungal properties and since cyanobacteria is a bacteria I thought they may help.

Mark.

 

[SuperColey1]

Your fish have been in the dark for a few days. Fish colour up in the light. When it is dark they tend no to do so. They will return to ful colour after a few days of the normal light/dark/light etc. regime allied with their standard feed.

As for doing another blackout, if the remaining Cyano is 'hanging' then suck it off with the syphon.

On the subject of 'anti-bacterial' I have no idea however I know Cyano is an incredibly evolved bacteria in that it is a photosynthesising bacteria. May be sort of 'immune' to things that kill normal bacterias. However Cajeput Tea Tree Oil is an anti fungus/anti bacterial agent. You could make your own 'Melafix' by adding 1ml Cajeput Oil to 500ml DI water and dosing as per the Melafix dosage. (I think its 5ml per 50ltrs)

Make sure it is 100% Cajeput Oil and not one of the common tea tree oils you get in the shops as these are diluted and with other ingredients too.


Glad it worked so well

The diatoms/algae on the glass is quite expected really. These 'thin' forms of algae are getting the same treatment as the Cyano in that they have been 'starved' of light. They may return though just as Cyano will if whatever caused the Cyano and algae in the first place is not remedied.

In addition, iron is being absorbed VERY quickly by, presumably, the plants; hence the reason why the algae is struggling to grow?

How do you know the iron uptake is any different. I hope its not another test kit. lol?

As for 'hence the reason' I'm afraid not.

Iron is a little different to the other traces. It reacts very very quickly with phosphate and becomes 'locked'

It is a trace that plants will ALWAYS uptake very very quickly. They have to or they miss out. This is why there are some very heavy chelating agents used on some traces. The harder the water the heavier the chelator needs to be.

For example Seachem Iron is nigh on useless in a hard water tank. It is FE gluconate and that is the weakest 'bond'. It can be almost instantly 'locked' up by the phosphate in hard water.

The there is EDTA which many traces use which lasts a little longer.

The longest commonly used chelator is DTPA.

I use both EDTA and DTPA on top of whatever the iron chelate is in my trace. Not because I needed to. I had no defficiencies but after reading I decided to see if it did anything. No news yet but no ill effect on the fish whilst dosing much more iron. lol so I continue.

AC

 

[mark4785]

Your fish have been in the dark for a few days. Fish colour up in the light. When it is dark they tend no to do so. They will return to ful colour after a few days of the normal light/dark/light etc. regime allied with their standard feed.

As for doing another blackout, if the remaining Cyano is 'hanging' then suck it off with the syphon.

On the subject of 'anti-bacterial' I have no idea however I know Cyano is an incredibly evolved bacteria in that it is a photosynthesising bacteria. May be sort of 'immune' to things that kill normal bacterias. However Cajeput Tea Tree Oil is an anti fungus/anti bacterial agent. You could make your own 'Melafix' by adding 1ml Cajeput Oil to 500ml DI water and dosing as per the Melafix dosage. (I think its 5ml per 50ltrs)

Make sure it is 100% Cajeput Oil and not one of the common tea tree oils you get in the shops as these are diluted and with other ingredients too.


Glad it worked so well

The diatoms/algae on the glass is quite expected really. These 'thin' forms of algae are getting the same treatment as the Cyano in that they have been 'starved' of light. They may return though just as Cyano will if whatever caused the Cyano and algae in the first place is not remedied.

In addition, iron is being absorbed VERY quickly by, presumably, the plants; hence the reason why the algae is struggling to grow?

How do you know the iron uptake is any different. I hope its not another test kit. lol?

As for 'hence the reason' I'm afraid not.

Iron is a little different to the other traces. It reacts very very quickly with phosphate and becomes 'locked'

It is a trace that plants will ALWAYS uptake very very quickly. They have to or they miss out. This is why there are some very heavy chelating agents used on some traces. The harder the water the heavier the chelator needs to be.

For example Seachem Iron is nigh on useless in a hard water tank. It is FE gluconate and that is the weakest 'bond'. It can be almost instantly 'locked' up by the phosphate in hard water.

The there is EDTA which many traces use which lasts a little longer.

The longest commonly used chelator is DTPA.

I use both EDTA and DTPA on top of whatever the iron chelate is in my trace. Not because I needed to. I had no defficiencies but after reading I decided to see if it did anything. No news yet but no ill effect on the fish whilst dosing much more iron. lol so I continue.

AC

Well the iron test kit by Seachem is indicating 0 ppm of Iron despite dosing 5ml of Easylife Profito 24 hours before. It usually takes much longer for it to be absorbed; I usually test for iron every 24 hours and I've known some traces of it to be in the water whereas after the blackout it was as though it was being absorbed 5x as fast due to it showing a reading of 0 ppm of chelated iron.

Can I ask what EDTA and DTPA are? I haven't come across these terms before.

Can I also ask what nutrient you are refering to that gets absorbs 'really really quickly' as you mentioned both phosphate and iron in the same sentence above?

 

[SuperColey1]

Well you know how we hate test kits Iron and phosphate are 2 of the hardest to measure accurately.

(If the test is accurate) it isn't surprising that the plants are absorbing the iron quicker. They are set up to take iron instantly because they know it disappears. You haven't dosed for a few days so they are 'filling their boots' so to speak.

Iron can be in the water but it may not be in a usable form to the plants.

EDTA and DTPA are 2 chelating agents. DTPA is stronger than EDTA. Therefore DTPA will remain chelated a little longer. By that I mean a couple of days. EDTA a day or less. Gluconate a few hours or in hard water (higher KH) maybe minutes. Then there is EDDHA and HEEDTA. All different strengths.

Seachem Iron is Gluconate so unless you have soft water its pretty much money wasted.

Iron gets absorbed quickly. It reacts with the phosphate and becomes locked up. Plants make sure they get it quick before this happens however they can only get what is in available form.

In hard water like I have in Lincolnshire Gluconate is not viable. EDTA is pretty much a weak option so I dose EDTA and DPTA daily. My trace will probably be using EDTA too.

The thread below is good reading. Your answer is basically in post #25 on page 3 but if you read form the first post you get the gist of what is being discussed here. Basically it boils down to this. Some hobby kits can't measure some chelated substances very well. Others measure them very well but that means measuring levels that may not be available.

The OP (Original poster - post #1) in this post starts off with your situation asking why when he adds his iron he gets a good reading but always zero by the end of the day. Read from the start and follow what he and others get told. Of course you already know it will say 'waste of time testing' throughout but the process and explanations are useful:

How long does iron 'live' in the tank

You'll be well up on the 'science' and 'theory' side of things by the time you've read all these links I keep putting up. lol. Thats how I know though. Research, research and bit more research. Then you learn things which of course leads you to research something further or something else etc.



AC

 

[mark4785]

Well you know how we hate test kits Iron and phosphate are 2 of the hardest to measure accurately.

(If the test is accurate) it isn't surprising that the plants are absorbing the iron quicker. They are set up to take iron instantly because they know it disappears. You haven't dosed for a few days so they are 'filling their boots' so to speak.

Iron can be in the water but it may not be in a usable form to the plants.

EDTA and DTPA are 2 chelating agents. DTPA is stronger than EDTA. Therefore DTPA will remain chelated a little longer. By that I mean a couple of days. EDTA a day or less. Gluconate a few hours or in hard water (higher KH) maybe minutes. Then there is EDDHA and HEEDTA. All different strengths.

Seachem Iron is Gluconate so unless you have soft water its pretty much money wasted.

Iron gets absorbed quickly. It reacts with the phosphate and becomes locked up. Plants make sure they get it quick before this happens however they can only get what is in available form.

In hard water like I have in Lincolnshire Gluconate is not viable. EDTA is pretty much a weak option so I dose EDTA and DPTA daily. My trace will probably be using EDTA too.

The thread below is good reading. Your answer is basically in post #25 on page 3 but if you read form the first post you get the gist of what is being discussed here. Basically it boils down to this. Some hobby kits can't measure some chelated substances very well. Others measure them very well but that means measuring levels that may not be available.

The OP (Original poster - post #1) in this post starts off with your situation asking why when he adds his iron he gets a good reading but always zero by the end of the day. Read from the start and follow what he and others get told. Of course you already know it will say 'waste of time testing' throughout but the process and explanations are useful:

How long does iron 'live' in the tank

You'll be well up on the 'science' and 'theory' side of things by the time you've read all these links I keep putting up. lol. Thats how I know though. Research, research and bit more research. Then you learn things which of course leads you to research something further or something else etc.



AC

Thanks for taking the time to source that thread for me.

I've read most of the thread and I'm finding it hard to understand what they are discussing. What I understood from the post and your recent reply is as follows:

1. Chelating agents are nutrients formulated to be dissolved in water and there are several different forms to choose from.
2. My Seachem Iron test kit (think you may have mis-interpreted it as a fertiliser?) only tests for the glucagon form of Iron?
3. My current iron fertilisers from the Easylife range contain glucagon Iron?
4. The DTPA form of iron is more long-lasting in hard water (my GH level is high) and is especially recommended if KH is high too (my KH is only 4-5dH). For this reason I should switch to a fertiliser which contains DTPA or rely on both DTPA and EDTA iron fertilisers?
5. DTPA can cause issues with the substrate as it doesn't get utilised if it is in the dark or shaded areas of the aquarium.
6. High DTPA iron which can get trapped and unutilised in the substrate can become toxic to fish if it builds up, post 7 page 1. I've already read about iron toxicity and thus keep it at about 0.1 - 0.2 ppm concentration.

 

[SuperColey1]

I've read most of the thread and I'm finding it hard to understand what they are discussing.

They are discussing how long the iron is available to plants when using different forms of chelators/binders.

1. Chelating agents are nutrients formulated to be dissolved in water and there are several different forms to choose from.

Nope. The link below will detail this question pretty quickly. Basically you can answer what will happen very quickly to unbound iron (i.e. iron filings) if you drop it in the tank. It will sink not move around the tank and will turn to rust very quickly.

http/www.barrreport.com/showthread.php/2768-Chelated-vs-non-chelated-iron

2. My Seachem Iron test kit (think you may have mis-interpreted it as a fertiliser?) only tests for the glucagon form of Iron?

No idea here. Thats what I meant. Some tests may only show available iron no matter whether it is usable or not, others may not be able to even measure all available iron. Therefore its a waste to test for it. How do we know what the result means even if it is accurately testing whatever it is supposed to test for?

It is very unlikely there is ever zero iron in the tank. Even if there is none measurable in the water there will be some in the substrate. When we dose not all of it is used before it gets to it's unusable form and then it falls into the substrate where it will eventually be altered into the usable state again.

All metals are like this as far as I know. Chemistry is not a strong subject for me. I research and research until I can grasp the idea rather than actual process.

3. My current iron fertilisers from the Easylife range contain glucagon Iron?

I don't think so but then they are secretive about what they us for some reason. the others will frely tell you what forms they use. TPN uses EDTA and HEEDTA, Seachem uses Fe Gluconate etc. No idea what is in the Easylife one but from its appearance I guess it is Ferrous Sulphate. It seems to work but no idea if it is as effective per dose as other forms.

4. The DTPA form of iron is more long-lasting in hard water (my GH level is high) and is especially recommended if KH is high too (my KH is only 4-5dH). For this reason I should switch to a fertiliser which contains DTPA or rely on both DTPA and EDTA iron fertilisers?

GH is pretty useless really. Just tells you how much Calcium/Magnesium is in the water. KH is the one/ is a little less than mine so I would guess your water is medium to hard? No idea. Not something I worry about to research in depth.

TH if you want to worry too much about iron and different chelators etc you should be getting your dry powders, mixing your own ferts and seeing for yourself what results you get. There are EDTA/DTPA powder mixes on ebay for under £2 which will suffice most people for a couple of years.

5. DTPA can cause issues with the substrate as it doesn't get utilised if it is in the dark or shaded areas of the aquarium.

I've read this but as we always say there are a million tanks that siuggest otherwise. My substrate was laid in September 2007. No problems with it!!! All chelators will end up in the substrate most likely.

High DTPA iron which can get trapped and unutilised in the substrate can become toxic to fish if it builds up, post 7 page 1. I've already read about iron toxicity and thus keep it at about 0.1 - 0.2 ppm concentration.

I wouldn't worry about iron toxicity or many of the comments on page 1. The real answer is in post 25 page3 . Don't ever single out answers in a thread until you reach the end and then only accept it if there is an 'absolute' answer.

For example in post #10 Tom answers that suggestion saying:

I see little evidence of long term effects in non CO2 planted tanks that have no water changes over 1-2 years time frames that are dosed with ETDA or DTPA.

I dose in the region of 1-2ppm not 0.x ppms. Not a problem.

You won't ever overdose iron if following the bottle instructions. I think I would be dosing somewhere close to 4ml of Easylife Ferro in a 125ltr tank. For your tank with less plants then 2ml-2.5ml would be fine. Will be well below levels that should worry anyone.

AC