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Are these eggs?! No bubbles anymore, but unknown orbs remain?

Discussion in 'Gouramis and Anabantoids' started by Vengified, Aug 27, 2018.

  1. Vengified

    Vengified Fish Fanatic

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    Yea. I've been doing egg yolk, the same way you said, squirting in with a syringe 1-2 mL every 3-4 hours (or close to it). I have fry in one tank, with baby shrimp (shrimp were 2 days old when gourami were 5 days), and then I made a DIY breeding box sort of thing, with 5 micron mesh on the inside of approximately a 1quart rectangular Tupperware, that has holes put in it (from a clean soldering iron) and then the same mesh on the outside of the container (as I read the gourami parents learn to "suck" the fry through the net). So I guess we will see which set does better? The container in the 10g with fry, also has a pretty hefty pack of hornwort in it.

    I would have them all in one place, but I thought I had probably sucked most of them out (as I didnt think there was any to begin with, I was very thorough, and did a tornado effect in the aquarium to get detritus to form a funnel in the center), but then after all was said and done, I saw another few dozen fry in the tank, and I couldnt let them be eaten/die, without an attempt at helping them survive, and keep a clear conscience... I now know though, that I dont ever want to be a "professional" breeder or even an amateur, as I dont want to cull defective offspring myself. Props to those who do it, it's just not my thing. Slaughtering large mammals to eat them, or fishing the lakes and rivers and eating that catch however, I do enjoy. Not a nature activist, just don't have the mindset to breed on a big or consistent scale.

    Anyways, I'm not even sure if my infusoria is doing anything constructive, as I used the indian almond leaves which turned it brown, and it was brown to begin with, from the filter squeezed water in it.

    Will paramecium grow with nothing other than treated tap water, and a spinach leaf? What if the spinach leaf was frozen? If not, can you direct me to a reliable, accurate guide? Or did I miss that part in the guide you actually wrote, lol? Cuz I've read about 3 dozen different ways to grow infusoria all over the web, not sure which is accurate....

    ... I'll go look at your guide again, see if I can find it. :rolleyes:
     
  2. Vengified

    Vengified Fish Fanatic

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    I re-read your guide. I cant do green water very easy, unless it works being very cold, or with a light bulb instead of the sun, or both, as it is entering fall here, and my area stays particularly cloudy, especially during winter. I believe we have an average of ~120 days with sun per year, with almost none during the winter.

    The infusoria, I'm not sure if it will work from frozen spinach or not yet, unless you responded while I typed this.

    Any of the other listed live foods, excluding BBS, arent available near me, and will take at least a week if not more to arrive, so I'm pretty much stuck with the egg yolk. Which is fine, as I have seen the tiny fry poking at it, maybe eating it, but they are so small, I cant tell. I forgot to add that in my last post, but I CAN see the fry moving towards some of the specks of egg yolk, and I assume eating it, as they seem to be slightly more visible (using my phone, with zoom way up, it's a note 8 with dual camera, great phone camera with a little bit of optical zoom, think it's one of the best available on a phone), so yea. I might have some pretty open minded fry, who take egg yolk, and dont insist on live foods, though I will be feeding BBS in the next few days along with it, and I know the big fish LOVE it, as I did it for them for the first time a few days ago.
     
  3. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    Any sort of non toxic plant matter can be used to make an infusoria culture. I recommend lettuce because they are cheap and readily available in most parts of the world. But spinach, silverbeet, cabbage, broccoli, oak leaves, or any leaves from non toxic plants, and even grass clippings can be used.

    You need to add a lot of plant matter to the water, 1 whole lettuce per 20 litres (5 gallons of water) or an equivalent amount of plant matter. You would need about 5-6 large spinach plants to equal 1 whole lettuce. If you get a 10 litre (2.5 gallon) bucket and loosely fill that about 2/3s with leaves or lawn clippings, that would be about the same as a lettuce.

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    You normally use tap water for the culture so you get a pure culture of infusoria. Any water can be used including seawater (if you're rearing marine fish fry). But clean water is generally used to make clean pure cultures that don't have other things in them. In an aquarium you can have hydra, snails, planaria and other sorts of small or microscopic organisms and most of them love the same types of bacteria that the infusoria (paramecium) eat. Hydra and a lot of other small creatures (including aquatic insect larvae) will also eat the infusoria. Using tap water will stop these other unwanted organisms getting into the culture and eating the infusoria or building up in numbers and eating the fish fry.

    You need to have the cultures covered to stop mosquitoes laying eggs in it. Mozzie larvae love to eat infusoria and will also eat fish fry. Other insects will also take up residence in the culture if they can get into it.

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    You do not need light for an infusoria culture to grow. The bacteria & infusoria don't care if it's light or dark and normal room light is adequate.

    It takes 2 weeks or more before the culture starts to clear and before the infusoria start to grow. Think of this as a bit like cycling an aquarium. It takes a few weeks for the first lot of filter bacteria to grow and after it has grown, the ammonia levels come down and the nitrite goes up. With infusoria cultures the first couple of weeks are where the bacteria grow and feed on the rotting leaves, then the infusoria starts to appear and build up in numbers after the bacteria have established.

    Once the culture has started to produce infusoria and you have started to harvest them, you add a couple of crushed up lettuce leaves (or some other type of plant matter) each day to provide food for the bacteria, that in turn provide food for the infusoria. If you don't add new leaves each day or every couple of days, the bacteria eventually stop growing and the paramecium run out of food and you run out of paramecium to feed to the fry.

    The new leaves only have to be added after the culture is established and you do not have to add leaves while it is developing. The new leaves are simply to extend the cultures life and keep it going for a few weeks, which is usually long enough for the fry to be moved onto newly hatched brineshrimp.

    If you have 2 or more cultures going you can harvest from one in the morning, one at lunch and one at night. This gives the cultures more time to recover between harvests and gives you a back up culture if one crashes, which can happen in really hot weather or it you forget to put the airstone back in. Cultures also die after a period of time so if you plan on breeding fish you should start new cultures every few weeks to ensure you have a plentiful supply of fry food when you get fry.

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    You can use almond leaves and the water will turn brown. Once the culture is growing well, you can use a torch to see the infusoria, they almost glow white in dark tannin stained water. We had a pond that ended up with a pile of Eucalyptus leaves in the bottom, there was about 1 foot of leaves in the bottom of this pond. The water went really dark (almost black coffee coloured) due to the tannins. One day we noticed white clouds in the water and the pond was completely full of infusoria. It had a dead lizard in it too and about 6 billion mozzie larvae. Needless to say, the fish were fed well that day and for a few weeks after that. We were scooping out nets full of mozzie larvae and putting handfuls into each tank with the fish. The infusoria were used for the baby fish that appeared a week after we fed the mozzie larvae to the fish.

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    The baby gouramis will be eating the smaller bits of egg yolk so keep feeding that until you get brineshrimp eggs and microworms. You can buy dry brineshrimp eggs online or at pet shops. The eggs should be kept dry and cool. I kept a tin of them in the freezer and filled a couple of small phials with dry eggs that were then put in the fridge. The tin of eggs went back in the freezer while I used the eggs in the fridge during the next week.

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    Microworms can be cultured in instant porridge. Get a small plastic container and spread a thin layer of oatmeal across the bottom. Add enough tap water to just cover the oatmeal and then put it in the microwave for a couple of minutes. After a minute in the microwave you remove the container and stir it up before putting it back in the microwave for another minute or so. Remove the oatmeal and mix it again before spreading it out in several small plastic containers (1-2 litre icecream containers work well for this). You have a 5mm (1/4 inch) layer of oatmeal on the bottom of each container and let it cool, this only takes a few minutes. Then you add a teaspoon of microworms (from a starter culture bought online or at pet shops) to each container of oatmeal and put the lid on it. Allow the culture to grow for a week and the worms will spread over the oatmeal and grow up the sides of the container. Use your finger to carefully wipe some of the worms off the side of the container and wiggle your finger about in the fry rearing tank. The worms are tiny and wash off in the water and the fry eat them.

    You can add more than a teaspoon of worms to each culture if you have access to a lot of worms but a teaspoon is the minimum you want to add. Drip the worms over the porridge/ oatmeal so they cover more of it faster.

    You can feed dry bakers yeast to the worms to help give them a boost. Normally yeast is added one time, a few days after a culture has been started. You can add yeast every few days but the yeast can cause cultures to crash so I normally only add it one time or if a culture is doing well, I might add it once a week while the culture is doing well.

    Have several cultures going and start new cultures each week. Keep cultures cool but not too cold, and avoid really hot weather. Normal room temperatures are ideal.

    If a culture does not have many worms, you sometimes get fungus growing over the oatmeal. You can take worms from this culture and use them to start a new culture before throwing the furry culture away. Wash the culture containers out in hot soapy water (dishwasher) between uses. Open the cultures up each day for a minute to let fresh air get into them. You do not need to have holes in the lid of the culture and insects will sometimes get into the cultures if you do have holes in the lid.

    When cultures start to go off, the oatmeal worm mixtures starts to turn brown and then black and it smells unpleasant. Start new cultures before this happens and dispose of cultures that have gone black or dark brown.

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    Algae cultures can be grown indoors and regularly are in scientific labs or aquaculture facilities. You have a couple of fluorescent lights above or next to some containers of water. You either add an algae starter disc (available from aquaculture supply stores (like Florida Fish Farms) or you just leave the containers of water open to the air. Algae spores will eventually land in the water and start the cultures.

    If you need to get green water quickly, you can use a clean fish sponge and wipe some green algae off the inside of an aquarium and rinse the sponge out in the culture container. Within a week the water should start to go green and soupy.

    The water should have fertiliser added to it. The directions are in the link Back to Basics when Breeding Fish, and you use 1 level tablespoon of lawn fertiliser for every 20 litres (5 gallons) of water.
    http://www.fishforums.net/threads/back-to-basics-when-breeding-fish.448304/

    Have the light on for 24 hours a day and aerate the water and fertiliser. Use an airline without an airstone to circulate the water. Tie a small lead weight to the airline to hold it on the bottom of the container of water.

    When the water goes green and soupy you start to add a liquid aquarium plant fertiliser or an iron based aquarium fertiliser to keep the culture going.

    You should start a new culture regularly by making up some clean tap water and fertiliser and adding some of the green water you already have.

    You can use old green water cultures to grow rotifers, daphnia & cyclops.
     
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  4. Vengified

    Vengified Fish Fanatic

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    WOW! As usual @Colin_T your wall of text never fails to impress! Even myself who regularly over-writes everything! But it is plum full of info as always too! Thank you! :D

    I added one spinach leaf, about the size of a silver dollar, to a gallon of water, and an almond leaf of the same size, so, I think I kind of missed the mark on the plant matter. Lol. I had done it with the aquarium water and dirty filter sponge anyways, so had done it wrong. I tossed it a couple nights ago anyways, as even though it had an airstone, I shut it off for about 10 minutes to harvest BBS (was on a splitter, turned off a higher up valve like a doofus), and when I turned it back on, I gagged from the rotten smell! It didnt smell like a dirty aquarium... It seriously smelled like Hades, ate his own feces, then vomited it back up, then fed it to Cerberus, then Cerberus poop'd it out, and then Hades stuck it in a Jar for a few thousand years, and decided to open that Jar inside my gallon of stank water, the second I turned the valve back on. My nose still burns 36 hours later. I have literally stood knee deep in a septic tank, and it didnt smell even 10% as bad as this jug did!:sick:

    On a lighter note: I am continuing to feed the egg yolk, as well as the BBS. I know they are eating it, at least some of them, and I have proof! I'll put up a super short video I got. Forgot I had some Jewelers Loupes also, so I held one, on the lens of my camera on my phone, and got some decent close up shots! But yea, they are doing well, at least some of them are showing huge, orange, fat bellies.

    And again, on yet another slight topic change: I put the female wild honey back in with the Male, as he was nearly turning gray, despite all levels in tank being good, seemed stressed/lonely. The female had similar actions in the community tank, as well as fighting. After putting them together, they both mellowed right out. For the night anyways. The next morning, I caught them mid hug sequence, under a new bigger, badder bubble nest! Those two wont quit doing it, but I guess that's expected. Anyways, he cared for the eggs, and he wasnt mean to her, or the one female guppy I somehow missed and moved in there. Then this morning, I wake up, his bubbles are ALL gone, babies are all over, some still where bubble nest was, and he is on a RAMPAGE all over the tank! I'm not sure how, or who, or what did anything to it, but he is NOT happy! He hasn't really targeted anyone, more of just a rampage racing around the tank, but not visibly trying to catch fry, as I see him pass them over and over. Hes just been throwing a tantrum I guess? So I've been going over every so often, and sucking stragglers out, and putting them in a shallow covered dish with some plants, under an LED bulb, which is putting out just enough heat to keep it at 80°. Figured when they start wiggling more, swimming horizontally, I'll put them in the smaller tank?

    I'm kind of weirded out by his craziness, I had a dream, in all seriousness, that he grew legs, and his feelers turned into enormous drill bits, he grew to about the size of the whole tank, drilled holes in, got out, and was chasing me around the house, trying to drill me. I have way out there dreams anyways, but still...

    Anyways, here are a couple pics, one of a not fat not orange baby, one of a shrimplet about 4 days old, for comparison to gourami fry 8 days, one of a fat orange baby, all 3 ~same distance from camera, with same zoom and loupe, and then the video of the little fat guy eating egg yolk!

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

     
  5. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    You might have a food intolerance, some medications can cause bad dreams, or you have things on your mind that are causing them. No big meals before bed and no meat for at least 4 hours before bed. Large high protein meals before bed can interfere with your sleep.

    If you have a food intolerance or are taking some medications, it can cause you to have weird dreams. The most common foods that cause bad dreams are dairy and wheat. Try dropping these foods for a few days and see if you sleep any better.

    No scary movies before bed and try to avoid electronic devices for a couple of hours before bed. Watching TV is fine but try to have the volume down and avoid movies that increase your blood pressure or have lots of graphic violence. Your brain will try to process these when you sleep and you can have weird dreams from it.

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    Your male gourami is stressing out because the babies have hatched. He hasn't realised it is normal and might continue to be a nutter or he might settle down in a few more batches.

    You don't need to remove the babies yet. When they first hatch they hang around the tank and stick to plants or the glass. They use their yolk sac during this time and do not become free swimming for a couple more days. Free Swimming is where they start swimming around the tank like baby guppies do when they are born.

    Egg layers usually have two stages to their eggs hatching, part one is the egg hatching and the fry hanging about for a few days. Part two is where the fry have used the yolk sac and developed a bit more and have become free swimming.

    In livebearers both of these stages occur inside the mother fish and the fry also develop more in the mother. Livebearer eggs are fertilised and hatch inside the mother. The fry develop for a couple more weeks inside the mother, and are born free swimming and big enough to eat newly hatched brineshrimp as soon as they hatch. Baby livebearers are the equivalent of about 3 week old egg laying fry. When your gourami fry are about 3 weeks old, they should be at a similar stage in development to newborn guppies.
     
  6. Vengified

    Vengified Fish Fanatic

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    Thanks @Colin_T for the sleep tips. I do take medication, SUPPOSEDLY I have ADD that was diagnosed at 30, even though I had a 4.0 GPA all through school, from K-12. But it is what it is, the dreams dont bother me too much, I know it's just a crazy imagination. The only time I get real bothered, is when it's a dream that involves pain or injury to my wife and son, which isnt often anymore.

    I forgot to ask a few things:

    The gourami fry, like the one shown in the picture with the fat orange belly, is that the same as guppies, if they prego looking, it's good? I know you said orange means they ate BBS, I'm not sure if that one did or not, but you can see in the video, its eating egg yolk. Some of them are transparent, some are orange bellies, same batch, 9 days old now.

    The infusoria culture, you say tap water, do I need to add Prime as well, since my tap does have chlorine and chloramines, or are the bacteria/infusoria unaffected by this?

    The gourami fry, in the little tank, get daily ~20% W/C, some slip through the net I have on the end of my small airline tubing, but I put them back in, are they going to be ok? I ask, because I know it needs to be humid for them, and as such, I have the entire top of the tank, covered in plastic wrap, and when I feed, I open one corner, where the lid has access hole, and squirt in food, then close it right back up, but when changing water, and vacuuming floor, I have to lift up a bit more of the lid to get to the other side. So I'm just worrying about the dangers of letting humidity out, or exposing some to open air, when they sometimes get sucked up?

    ... As for my male honey gourami, I have pretty much decided, he is simply psychotic, and will always be psychotic, and do not plan to ever add him back to my community tank. I will let him have his own tank, and when he is done protecting his young, and calms down, I will open the divider to his girlfriend again, after a couple weeks of good feed of course. He had gotten snippy again, so I put up a divider, cuz my female was hiding under the sponge filter sideways, and would not come out at ALL!

    It seems the "peaceful" and "community" fish, are always backwards in my tank, and knowing my luck with fish, I could grab a piranha, throw it in with guppies, and it would snuggle them, and have tea parties with them and the shrimp...:rolleyes:
     
    #51 Vengified, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2018
  7. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    When feeding the baby gouramis (or any baby fish) you want them to have fat little stomachs so they look like a pregnant guppy. It doesn't matter what food they get (egg yolk, brineshrimp nauplii), you want them to have fat little stomachs.

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    The babies grow at different rates and female fry grow slower and have smaller mouths so they don't normally take baby brineshrimp for a few days after the bigger fry and male fry take it. In addition to this, colour forms and mutated fish will usually grow slower than normal coloured fry. You won't be able to tell what colour they are or if they are deformed yet but generally the females, mutants and fish with different colours grow slower than normal coloured fish and males.

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    If you have chloramine in the water supply, then use a dechlorinator to remove the chlorine in the infusoria culture.
    If you only have chlorine in your tap water, then you don't need to worry about a dechlorinator because the chlorine will come out by itself with aeration.

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    If the fry are being sucked out of the rearing tank, they should be fine as long as they aren't damaged when going up and out the hose or landing in the bucket at the other end.

    The fry need warm air above the water for the first month of life, after that the air temperature is less of an issue. Even when young, the fry don't have too many problems with air temperature as long as the air isn't cold.
    eg: if you had them outdoors without a cover, the air temperature would be too cold for them. However, in a house with a comfortable air temperature for people, the air above the water should be warm enough so the fry don't suffer any ill effects if the cover is temporarily removed for a few minutes during water changes and feeding.
     
  8. Vengified

    Vengified Fish Fanatic

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    Thanks again @Colin_T ! You have been an invaluable resource throughout my MANY fish questions! If it was not for you, and others (@seangee @essjay @NickAu @Lunar Jetman @Byron @mikey11 and ANYONE else who helped me in any of my many posts) I am positive I would have given up the fishkeeping hobby LONG ago. Instead, I have gained vast quantities of fishkeeping, microorganism, biology, and general knowledge, as well as MTS and a hobby I am finally fully vested in! It only took me 33 years alive, to find a hobby that I truly enjoy, and one where I continue to learn, and dont suffer boredom. I cant begin to express how much I appreciate all of you, and your help, with special thanks to Colin_T for always responding swiftly, with thorough answers, and more of them than I even inquired about! :thanks::thanks::thanks:
     
  9. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    The first year of your apprenticeship hasn't finished yet. There is still much to learn young Padawan, next you will be breeding tetras and catfish. At the end of your learning period, you will be bestowed with many tanks and a special room to keep them all in :)
     
  10. Vengified

    Vengified Fish Fanatic

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    I agree! I still have MUCH to learn, and I would LOOOOOOOVVVVVVVVVVE a room for just fish! I told my wife already, we MUST find a house with an unfinished basement, so I can set it up the way I want. She wants to share my man-cave, and luckily, she likes a lot of the stuff I do, but I told her at least half of it is going to be a fish-cave. She promised I could have at LEAST one big tank (250g+), and 4-5 @ equal or less than 55g tanks. I cant wait!

    Dunno if I'll ever do tetras, I'm not really partial too them, I do like the Galaxy Rasbora (which I think is actually a danio?) and chili rasbora, micro fish I guess you would say. But I'm sure if I had TONS of space, I would want to venture into other fish, including tetras. I do like the pygmy juli cory catfish (if that's the right terminology?) Super tiny little bottom feeders that sort of scurry across the substrate with noses.

    Ah someday, hopefully soon, I can start to feed my new addiction more. Of course, fish will have to come second after the wife, son, and new baby on the way, so it could be a few years. Lol.:confused:
     
  11. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    If tetras don't float your boat, how about barbs?
    Ruby barbs are nice and easy to breed. The only thing you need to know about breeding tetras is to use really soft water (GH below 50ppm) and to keep the eggs out of light. Once the fry are free swimming then you can add light but before they hatch, you cover the tank with a towel to block out any light.

    You can build a fish room outside. It's basically an insulated shed full of tanks. You can also build the other half a woman cave for her to use.

    And you need to get your priorities right. Fish first, then dogs and birds, plants, wife and kids. You can always make more kids so if they get grumpy, trade em in for some fish. And if the mrs gets grumpy, trade her in too :)
     
  12. seangee

    seangee Member

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    IMO tetras are cool. Being egg scatterers and as the eggs are light sensitive you would actually have to do some work to become over-run.:)
    Galaxy rasbora (Celestial Pearl Danios or CPD) are also cool but are very shy and easily outcompeted for food so you should keep them in a species only tank or with similar "micro" fish.
     
  13. Vengified

    Vengified Fish Fanatic

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    +1 To that! Lol. I wish... But my wife does keep telling me I am addicted, and I did get another container last week for the gourami fry (just an 8 gallon Tupperware, but it's only 6 inches tall, so it's very long and wide, and bought some plexiglass and made a nice clear lid to see them grow). I can tell some of them are disappearing, or it seems that way, but they could be in the hornwort. The bigger ones though, are WAY past the size of a newborn-7day old guppy, and they arent 3 weeks old yet, so I must be doing something right. The biggest ones are 18 days old now, but I gotta rush order some live foods, cuz I am totally out!

    As far as a fish room outside, it would not work, unless I invested some SERIOUS dough into insulation and heating, as it gets COLD in the winter, and I mean WAY, WAY, WAY COLD! Last winter we had over 3 weeks of less than -20°F (-29°C), with a few of those days being -40 to -45°, and that was withOUT the windchill. We were actually colder than my aunt in Alaska, and colder than the Arctic a few times, which is nuts, since Montana isnt THAT far north. Anyways, yea, fish outside is a no-go in this state, at least if you want to see them again, or have extremely hardy fish, with large bodies of water, that freeze the surface. I honestly dont know how our native fish survive some winters, it's honestly amazing!
     
  14. Vengified

    Vengified Fish Fanatic

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    Just thought I would drop another line, let anyone interested know, that I still have dozens of the little honey gouramis growing in their tank! The male and female in my 10g, just keep breeding, every 4 or 5 days. As soon as the babies are free swimming, and the male cant keep them in their corner, he gives up, and starts flirting with the girl, who seems to receive it happily, and they do it all over again. He has calmed down a LOT, and doesnt try and murder everything (though it's just him, her, babies, and a few shrimp and snails in that tank). It seems he just has one single day, the day before they free swim, that he is sort of defensive towards the female, but he doesn't rocket across the tank to attack her on sight anymore, and she is out and about more, except that one day. Maybe he will eventually calm down.

    Its crazy how some of the gourami fry differ so much! Some are completely white, almost albino, some are clear, some are clear with a dark stripe down the middle, some are orange and black, and I have just two, that seem to be a rainbow, sort of shimmer of colors with a black stripe down the middle. In fact, I put one of the shimmer ones, in my community tank, and he/she is still swimming around, and none of the other adult fish seem to mind, or have any desire to attack/eat the lone fry.

    Fish are so fun!:fish:
     
  15. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    So what are you going to buy with the credit you get from supplying the local shops with gouramis? :)
     

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