Angel Issue

[tenohfive]

I've just acquired a Juwel Rio 180, complete with inhabitants. In moving the tank across (and travelling an hour and a half home) and with no time to acclimatise, they all had a stressful day.

One of the residents is an adult angel, and whilst he seemed fine when living in temporary accomodation (my 90L tang cichlid tank) while I sorted out the new tank, I've just tested water parameters for the 180 (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, 20 nitrate) and moved him back into the 180. Since doing so he's sat at the top of the water, mouth up - not gasping from what I can tell, just stationary. I've moved a few others across and they seem fine - if a little jittery which is understandable.

Theres surface movement (2 eheim pro externals and a fluval 4+ covered that) so I'm thinking he's just a little stressed. Sound about right?

 

[kribensis12]

He is probably stressed. Are his gills red or inflamed?

 

[tenohfive]

No, they appear normal.

When I went down to look he was upside down, then he came upright for a bit, before turning upside down and back upright, then swam along.

This is the first angel I've kept - is this normal behaviour when stressed?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

unable to balance or hold yourself right in the water is usually a sign of swim bladder, however considering the other circumstances i would suggest he is most likely a bit stressed and traumatised and will come round. just closely monitor things if there's no improvement tomorrow then look into treatment.

 

[tenohfive]

Cheers.

 

[tenohfive]

Its odd...I've just popped downstairs now and he was on his side. When he saw me and my other half he seemed to right himself.

Will do what you mentioned, if tomorrow morning he's not okay I'll look at treatment. From memory swimbladders often either a diet issue or a result of internal bacterial infection, right?

(I'll look it up if I don't get an answer, just being lazy.)

 

[Davo86]

TBH is just sounds like the same things my old angels used to do if i happened to do a larger than normal water change,
I would just add some stress coat and leave the light off for an hour or so

 

[WILDER]

So you didn't climatise them.
Turning upside down can also be a sign of ph shock.
Any excess slime on the fish.
Does the fish look like it's just ignoring his surrounding.

Also ph shock sometimes can take up to two weeks to kill fish.

 

[tenohfive]

Should be same pH, both tanks have proportionately the same amount of bog wood and both get the same dechlorinated tapwater, though granted its been a week since the tank he was in had a water change, where as the new tank had a 50% change yesterday. I'll test both for pH.
No excess slime on him. And he does seem to be ignoring his surroundings. Occasionally he'll right himself for awhile before slowly ending up upside down.

As for acclimatisation, no I didn't - temps should have been the same and both tanks should have similar water parameters...I moved cory's, danio's and rainbows across at the same time with no ill effects.

I've just come home after being out for 7 hours and found him upside down in the tank. I've dosed with interpet anti-internal bacteria in case its a bacterial based swim bladder problem and I'll post up the pH results for the old and new tank.

 

[tenohfive]

I take it back - he's gone from a tank with a pH of 7.9 to 8.2. And the temp is definately different, though I can't tell by how much because my digital thermometer is broken and the replacement won't work.

I've covered most of the front in a tank and left the lights turned off, so there'll only be a bit of ambient light getting to him.

I'm open to any other advice or suggestions.

 

[WILDER]

If temp was alot different it can cause whitespot, swim bladder, and columnaris.
Might of got away with the ph leave some info for you.

http/www.flippersandfins.net/SwimbladderDisease.htm

pH Shock

As its name suggests this condition occurs when a fish is introduced to quickly into a new environment which has a very different pH from the one it came from, when the pH is adjusted to quickly and the fish have little or no time to adjust themselves, or when the pH is to far outside the fishes normal range.

It is very important that any change in water chemistry is made slowly and fish should never be exposed to changes of pH greater than 0.5 of one unit on the pH scale in either direction.

Avoidance is by far the best solution because in most cases the symptoms don't appear until the second or third day by which time the damage has been done and the fish will probably die.

A fish suffering from this condition will show all the typical signs of shock -

Lying on the bottom and paying little or no attention to its surroundings and ignoring potential threats.
It may even lay on its side or go upside down completely.
There could be other signs to, related to Acidosis and Alkalosis
Excessive mucus production.
Rapid breathing.
Swollen abdomen. (Alkalosis only).
If the condition is allowed to go on for one or two days then the chances of a successful remedy are greatly reduced because a lot of damage will have taken place. If the symptoms are spotted early enough there are a couple of things that will help.

Begin to return the pH to the original pH in steps of 0.4 of one unit on the pH scale and allow 3 hrs in between the adjustments. Make these adjustments until the pH is returned to a safe and satisfactory level.
Treat the tank with a broad spectrum anti-Bacteria/Fungus compound to prevent secondary infections of the Skin and Gills.
Prevention is easy. A successful treatment isn't!

 

[tenohfive]

Cheers for that. Given the time between moving the angel across and now (8 hours) is it too late to return the pH back to what it was? Or would that just make things worse?

I've already started treating with an anti-bac treatment.

 

[WILDER]

Not sure if i'm honest.
Pm tolak he great he will advise you.
http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showuser=2323

 

[Tolak]

That isn't a real big pH change, I would attribute it to a temperature change and/or stress. If this is a newly acquired fish it could also be a hardness and/or total dissolved solids issue.

Constipation or bloat will often cause swim bladder issues in angels, this could be a combination of what they ate before the move, how stressed they were during the move, and tank temperature which affects metabolism.

Antibiotics will take a little more time to act on any infection, if that is the issue. Epsom salt is good for clearing out the digestive tract in cases of constipation, and will draw any fluids out in the event of bacterial issues, which often include swelling that affects the swim bladder. Epsom salt can be used with antibiotics.

For a long term dose, meaning leaving the fish in the tank, start with one teaspoon of epsom salt per ten gallons, increasing by a teaspoon daily to bring it up to three teaspoons per ten gallons.

For a short term dip, three teaspoons per gallon, for 5 to 10 minutes, in a separate container or tank.

In cases where the fish is having this much trouble swimming I would go with the dip, the long term dosing at a lower level is better suited for fish that appear constipated but are otherwise fine.

 

[tenohfive]

If he's still in the same way in the morning I'll try to get hold of some epsom salt. Anyone know if its available in the UK?

Thanks Tolak and Wilder.