I'm giving up.... O2 issues??

[MaloK]

The pump you have should be alright !

 

[Colin_T]

Did you dechlorinate the new water before adding it to the aquarium?

Do you use buckets and hoses specifically for the fish?

If fish are gasping after a water change then it is either chlorine/ chloramine in the water or a foreign substance has entered the tank from whatever was used to do the water change.

A double dose of dechlorinater in the tank will usually help if it's chlorine/ chloramine.
Increasing aeration/ surface turbulence can help too.
Adding carbon to a filter can help if it's chemicals that got into the tank.

 

[Jinx_]

Did you dechlorinate the new water before adding it to the aquarium?

Do you use buckets and hoses specifically for the fish?

If fish are gasping after a water change then it is either chlorine/ chloramine in the water or a foreign substance has entered the tank from whatever was used to do the water change.

A double dose of dechlorinater in the tank will usually help if it's chlorine/ chloramine.
Increasing aeration/ surface turbulence can help too.
Adding carbon to a filter can help if it's chemicals that got into the tank.

Hi, appreciate it but I've already confirmed a tank crash

 

[Jinx_]

Good news for today actually.

Ammonia and nitrite are both 0 now, guppies are much happier than yesterday. I didn't do a water change as to not crash it again.

I will test water tomorrow to see if nothing went wrong again.

 

[Jinx_]

Lighting is bad on the ammonia one, but it's 0

 

[MaloK]

Wow, for a "mini cycle" it when quick.

 

[Jinx_]

Wow, for a "mini cycle" it when quick.

I know right? It's like the water change helped.

 

[MaloK]

Theoretically you could have waited longer to react. But your fish showed their disapprobation with the water conditions really fast.

Loll !

 

[Jinx_]

Theoretically you could have waited longer to react. But your fish showed their disapprobation with the water conditions really fast.

Loll !

I wouldn't leave them long in such nasty water. They suffered enough

 

[Tank1]

1) Not changing the water at a routine time period can lead to alterations in chemistry that are dangerous and I suspect in this case, possibly the PH slowly dropped, which the fish can get used to, and then it suddenly changed when you finally did the water change. So, "PH shock" may have played some roll here.

2) I saw no mention of water conditioner used with the water change. Can I assume that it was used? If not, that's another cause for fish distress.

3) If your aquarium only has a basic sponge filter and you cleaned it out, you likely removed too much beneficial bacteria. In fact, those two strains of bacteria are very sensitive to changes and come off of surfaces they are attached to quite easily. I strongly suggest that you improve your filtration or at least add some sort of biological element to your existing sponge filter. Regardless, never rinse a filter sponge in the sink. ONLY and gently clean it in a bucket/container of aquarium water and don't try to get it super clean, especially if it's the only filter element to your filtration. You run the risk of sterilizing it otherwise and that could explain a spike in Ammonia and Nitrite. Beneficial bacteria are also sensitive to PH changes.

4) Doing the repeated water changes is a temporary fix. The ammonia and nitrite levels may rise again until the beneficial bacteria re-establishes enough to deal with the bio-load created by your fish. I strongly suggest that you dose the tank daily with water conditioner to temporarily detoxify the effects of ammonia and nitrite. I also strongly suggest that you purchase a bottle of aquarium start-up bacteria and dose the tank daily for a few days or longer, regardless of what the directions say. Quick Start by AQI is a great product.

Hopefully things have settled down in your system now.

Inclosing, we should all use conditioner products at water change time. Something to detoxify and something to aid in repopulation of bacteria strains. Any and every water change we do upsets the balance, temporarily. In a healthy, well maintained system, the upset is generally minimal and short lived, but it occurs nonetheless.

 

[Essjay]

Quick Start by AQI is a great product.

This contains the wrong species of nitrite eaters. Better products are Dr Tim's One & Only and Tetra Safe Start, both of which contain the correct species.

 

[Jinx_]

2) I saw no mention of water conditioner used with the water change. Can I assume that it was used? If not, that's another cause for fish distress.

I use Tetra one.

 

[TwoTankAmin]

@Tank1

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you got almost everything you posted about the nitrifying bacteria wrong.

They actually are not easy to dislodge from most of the places to which they are they are attached. Inside the filter media you almost ne to kill them in places rather than detach them.

And for the most part it is not reallt that bad to rinse the media under tap water, there are several reasons this is the case. Chlorine takes about a day to entritely penetrate the bio-film. Chloramine, in the presence of any amount of ammonia does npot kill the bacteria, it puts them to sleep, When the chloramine breaks down, it becomes chlorine and ammonia. The chlorine is neutralized by the dechlor and the bacteria normally get the ammonia. However, most dechlors also contain an ammonia detoxifier which converts it to a much less harmfull form, ammonium. The bacteria can still use this nut do so much less efficiently.

However, the amount of residua; chlorine. chlpramine or ammonia that comes in with otu tap water is in very sma;; amounts, So when one rinses their media under tap the concentration of the bad things is quite low. Then we return the media to the filter and refil the tank having added dechlor. So any remaining residual stuff in the sponge gets diluted fairly fast and then the dechlor also deals with it.

One of the very first breeders from whom I bought fish (corys) told me he never used dechlor and he was on Chicago tap water. It took me a while to understand how this was possible.

SOME IMPORTANT FACTS ABOUT AMMONIA

Ammonia in water exists in two forms. NH3, which is the familiar nasty gas we know. Fish exhale NH3. Rotting organic matter will also create ammonia. This stuff is highly toxic and will definitely be harming fish by the time it reaches a concentration of .05 ppm (Some fish and inverts need even lower levels to be safe). However, most of the ammonia in water exists in the form of ammonium which is NH4. This is way less harmful. But in sufficient concentrations and/or exposure times, it causes external burns. The typical test kits we use measure Total Ammonia (TA) which is the sum of both NH3 and NH4.

Knowing how dangerous any level of TA might be requires that one know not only how much total ammonia there is but also how much of that total is in each form? The answer depends upon two other water parameters- pH and temperature. The higher the pH and/or temperature, the more of the TA that is in the toxic NH3 form. To calculate how much of the toxic NH3 form of ammonia requires that you know what the pH and temperature of your tank water are. Once you know all three numbers (total ammonia, pH and temperature) there is a formula for calculating how much of the total ammonia is in the form of NH3. It is way more complicated to use than most of us can handle. Fortunately, there are charts and tables available for this calculation. There is also currently a handy dandy ammonia calculator you can find here: http://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/Calculators/FreeAmmonia.php

from https://www.fishforums.net/threads/rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il.433778/

Also, I have kept between 20 and 28 tanks over the 9as5 2 decades. I am also one who stocks between heavily and more. I have never once had to add bacteria to an extablsihed tank after doing a 50%+ water change, media rinsing and a refill. But I have well water and do not use dechlor as I have no need.

The reason for addng the bacteria is the makers and sellers of it need more of your money even though you do not need more of their product.

Here is some basic science with which to start:

	Dunne Jr, W.M., 2002. Bacterial adhesion: seen any good biofilms lately?. Clinical microbiology reviews, 15(2), pp.155-166.

Lee WH, Wahman DG, Bishop PL, Pressman JG. Free chlorine and monochloramine application to nitrifying biofilm: comparison of biofilm penetration, activity, and viability. Environ Sci Technol. 2011 Feb 15;45(4):1412-9. doi: 10.1021/es1035305. Epub 2011 Jan 12. PMID: 21226531.

Abstract​

Biofilm in drinking water systems is undesirable. Free chlorine and monochloramine are commonly used as secondary drinking water disinfectants, but monochloramine is perceived to penetrate biofilm better than free chlorine. However, this hypothesis remains unconfirmed by direct biofilm monochloramine measurement. This study compared free chlorine and monochloramine biofilm penetration into an undefined mixed-culture nitrifying biofilm by use of microelectrodes and assessed the subsequent effect on biofilm activity and viability by use of dissolved oxygen (DO) microelectrodes and confocal laser scanning microscopy (CLSM) with LIVE/DEAD BacLight. For equivalent chlorine concentrations, monochloramine initially penetrated biofilm 170 times faster than free chlorine, and even after subsequent application to a monochloramine penetrated biofilm, free chlorine penetration was limited. DO profiles paralleled monochloramine profiles, providing evidence that either the biofilm was inactivated with monochloramine's penetration or its persistence reduced available substrate (free ammonia). While this research clearly demonstrated monochloramine's greater penetration, this penetration did not necessarily translate to immediate viability loss. Even though free chlorine's penetration was limited compared to that of monochloramine, it more effectively (on a cell membrane integrity basis) inactivated microorganisms near the biofilm surface. Limited free chlorine penetration has implications when converting to free chlorine in full-scale chloraminated systems in response to nitrification episodes.

I first read the below when it was a PhD thesis by one of the authors below

Lee, W.H., Pressman, J.G. and Wahman, D.G., 2018. Three-dimensional free chlorine and monochloramine biofilm penetration: correlating penetration with biofilm activity and viability. Environmental science & technology, 52(4), pp.1889-1898.

Abstract​

Disinfectant biofilm penetration and its effect on biofilm aerobic activity and viability are still unclear. In this study, free chlorine and monochloramine were applied until full biofilm penetration occurred, and their effects on biofilm aerobic activity and viability were investigated in three dimensions throughout the entire biofilm depth, extending previous work where viability analysis was limited to the upper biofilm (50 μm depth), free chlorine penetration did not reach completion, and only one-dimensional (depth) profiles were obtained. The free chlorine and monochloramine biofilm concentration profiles were correlated spatially and temporally with aerobic microbial activity and cell-membrane integrity based viability using a combination of (1) microelectrode measurements for disinfectant penetration and (2) LIVE/DEAD BacLight staining, cryo-cross-sectioning, and confocal micrographs analysis for viability measurements throughout the entire biofilm depth. Compared to monochloramine, free chlorine penetration (1) was slower, (2) led to a greater decrease in biofilm thickness from sloughing, and (3) corresponded directly with a viability decrease. In addition, biofilm heterogeneity led to minor differences in either disinfectant's biofilm penetration, and prior biofilm exposure to monochloramine provided little impact to subsequent free chlorine biofilm penetration.

from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6056003/


Dunne Jr, W.M., 2002. Bacterial adhesion: seen any good biofilms lately?. Clinical microbiology reviews, 15(2), pp.155-166

Abstract​

The process of surface adhesion and biofilm development is a survival strategy employed by virtually all bacteria and refined over millions of years. This process is designed to anchor microorganisms in a nutritionally advantageous environment and to permit their escape to greener pastures when essential growth factors have been exhausted. Bacterial attachment to a surface can be divided into several distinct phases, including primary and reversible adhesion, secondary and irreversible adhesion, and biofilm formation. Each of these phases is ultimately controlled by the expression of one or more gene products. Ultrastructurally, the mature bacterial biofilm resembles an underwater coral reef containing pyramidal or mushroom-shaped microcolonies of organisms embedded within an extracellular glycocalyx, with channels and cavities to allow the exchange of nutrients and waste. The biofilm protects its inhabitants from predators, dehydration, biocides, and other environmental extremes while regulating population growth and diversity through primitive cell signals. From a physiological standpoint, surface-bound bacteria behave quite differently from their planktonic counterparts. Recognizing that bacteria naturally occur as surface-bound and often polymicrobic communities, the practice of performing antimicrobial susceptibility tests using pure cultures and in a planktonic growth mode should be questioned. That this model does not reflect conditions found in nature might help explain the difficulties encountered in the management and treatment of biomedical implant infections.

And more importantly,

INTRODUCTION​

Given their druthers, bacteria prefer a community-based, surface-bound, sedentary lifestyle to a nomadic existence. ZoBell and others (45, 62, 89, 98, 100) recognized this tendency early in the twentieth century as a habitual characteristic of aquatic bacterial populations. In fact, these early observations provided tremendous insight into contemporary models of bacterial adhesion, given the unavailability of analytic and molecular tools at the time.

In natural aquatic ecosystems, surface-associated microorganisms vastly outnumber organisms in suspension (100). The propensity for bacteria to colonize surfaces is advantageous from an ecological standpoint because it preferentially targets specialized microorganisms to specific locations, encouraging symbiotic relationships. Examples of these relationships are abundant in nature and include the prokaryotic diazotrophs that colonize the roots of legumes (76) and the diverse residential microbial flora inhabiting the digestive tract of ruminants that promotes the degradation and recycling of insoluble materials (10).

The inclination for bacteria to become surface bound is so ubiquitous in diverse ecosystems that it suggests a strong survival and/or selective advantage for surface dwellers over their free-ranging counterparts (17, 20, 100)............

from https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC118072/

 

[Tank1]

@Tank1

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but you got almost everything you posted about the nitrifying bacteria wrong.

They actually are not easy to dislodge from most of the places to which they are they are attached. Inside the filter media you almost ne to kill them in places rather than detach them.

And for the most part it is not reallt that bad to rinse the media under tap water, there are several reasons this is the case. Chlorine takes about a day to entritely penetrate the bio-film. Chloramine, in the presence of any amount of ammonia does npot kill the bacteria, it puts them to sleep, When the chloramine breaks down, it becomes chlorine and ammonia. The chlorine is neutralized by the dechlor and the bacteria normally get the ammonia. However, most dechlors also contain an ammonia detoxifier which converts it to a much less harmfull form, ammonium. The bacteria can still use this nut do so much less efficiently.

However, the amount of residua; chlorine. chlpramine or ammonia that comes in with otu tap water is in very sma;; amounts, So when one rinses their media under tap the concentration of the bad things is quite low. Then we return the media to the filter and refil the tank having added dechlor. So any remaining residual stuff in the sponge gets diluted fairly fast and then the dechlor also deals with it.

One of the very first breeders from whom I bought fish (corys) told me he never used dechlor and he was on Chicago tap water. It took me a while to understand how this was possible.


from https://www.fishforums.net/threads/rescuing-a-fish-in-cycle-gone-wild-part-il.433778/

Also, I have kept between 20 and 28 tanks over the 9as5 2 decades. I am also one who stocks between heavily and more. I have never once had to add bacteria to an extablsihed tank after doing a 50%+ water change, media rinsing and a refill. But I have well water and do not use dechlor as I have no need.

The reason for addng the bacteria is the makers and sellers of it need more of your money even though you do not need more of their product.

Here is some basic science with which to start:

	Dunne Jr, W.M., 2002. Bacterial adhesion: seen any good biofilms lately?. Clinical microbiology reviews, 15(2), pp.155-166.

Lee WH, Wahman DG, Bishop PL, Pressman JG. Free chlorine and monochloramine application to nitrifying biofilm: comparison of biofilm penetration, activity, and viability. Environ Sci Technol. 2011 Feb 15;45(4):1412-9. doi: 10.1021/es1035305. Epub 2011 Jan 12. PMID: 21226531.



I first read the below when it was a PhD thesis by one of the authors below

Lee, W.H., Pressman, J.G. and Wahman, D.G., 2018. Three-dimensional free chlorine and monochloramine biofilm penetration: correlating penetration with biofilm activity and viability. Environmental science & technology, 52(4), pp.1889-1898.


from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6056003/


Dunne Jr, W.M., 2002. Bacterial adhesion: seen any good biofilms lately?. Clinical microbiology reviews, 15(2), pp.155-166



And more importantly,

from https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC118072/

Got it. I see how it is here. FYI, my extensive experience says otherwise so I will take it elsewhere.

Admin, please delete my account. Thank you and farewell.

 

[Jinx_]

Admin, please delete my account. Thank you and farewell.

A little too drastic