This started before the gravel was removed from the aquarium. It was probably triggered by high nitrates but I doubt environment is the issue. I have had plecos in bare glass tanks with no substrate and they were fine.
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Please help my pleco (mouth closed, not breathing normally)
- Thread starter blyatboy
- Start date
Don't stop doing water changes. Keep doing them because he improves with the water changes.
Ho no, if you identified nitrate as the source of the problem... Don't stop the water changes... What i said is based on the very first pics...
Hi all. Would like to check in for an update.
I've been doing ~60% water changes these past few days, pre-treating my tap water with Nitra-Zorb (which lowered tap water nitrates from 20 PPM down to <5 PPM).
These past few days, a common pattern has emerged:
What concerns me the most right now is actually his eyes. They seem to have gotten even more cloudy, though he still seems visually alert:
It's hard to capture on camera, but from the side, it does look like it is largely limited to the cornea, and not any deeper:
Cross referencing past pictures, it does not appear the eye is bulging, but I can't be 100% certain. At this point, can we still rule out bacterial infection? All the guppies are doing fine so far, nothing to report for them. Overall nitrate level in the tank is well under 10 PPM now.
Appreciate all of the replies so far.
I've been doing ~60% water changes these past few days, pre-treating my tap water with Nitra-Zorb (which lowered tap water nitrates from 20 PPM down to <5 PPM).
These past few days, a common pattern has emerged:
- Largely inactive, relapsed behaviour throughout the day (mouth shut, not breathing, surfacing for air every ~20 minutes)
- Closer to feeding time, he would start grazing around and breathing normally
- During and after feeding, he would be very active, breathing normally, acting almost 100% recovered. This would continue well into the early morning (at least past 2 AM, and sometimes I would catch him at 6 AM acting very much normally, sucking on glass etc.)
- By the time I get up at 9 AM or 10 AM, he would have "relapsed" again, and the whole cycle continues...
What concerns me the most right now is actually his eyes. They seem to have gotten even more cloudy, though he still seems visually alert:
It's hard to capture on camera, but from the side, it does look like it is largely limited to the cornea, and not any deeper:
Cross referencing past pictures, it does not appear the eye is bulging, but I can't be 100% certain. At this point, can we still rule out bacterial infection? All the guppies are doing fine so far, nothing to report for them. Overall nitrate level in the tank is well under 10 PPM now.
Appreciate all of the replies so far.
It's unlikely to be a bacterial infection in both eyes at the same time. Normally if an eye gets injured it will become milky cloudy over the outside and might swell up for a bit. After a few days with clean water the eye should be back to normal.
If the eye was badly damaged it will have blood in it (you can see red in the eye) and the fish might go blind in that eye. If the damage isn't extreme it might lose some vision in that eye.
The fact both eyes developed the white bit at the same time would suggest something other than a bacterial infection. Bacterial infections also tend to move fast and eyes can be good one day and really bad a day or two later. This is kind of weird because both eyes developed the white bit at the same time but it hasn't turned into anything resembling a bacterial infection.
I think the eyes are a monitor and see what happens issue.
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As for the weird breathing, I wonder if it's the fish sleeping and resting. You mention when you recently watched the fish it was breathing normally while it was active and feeding and for some hours after this. Then it started resting and the breathing pattern changed. It might be that particular fish has a weird breathing pattern when resting. This might not be documented because most people don't watch their fish that closely.
Regarding the breathing issue. I would see how the fish goes over the next month with the clean water (nitrate free tap water thanks to the nitra-zorb). Update this thread if there's a change.
These fish are nocturnal so sleeping during the day (when the tank light is on) is normal for them. If the fish is breathing normally for 12-16 hours a day and breathes unusually for 8 hours, then it might be the fish's sleep breathing pattern that you are seeing. If this is the case, record it in high-def and keep it for scientific reasons.
The fact the fish eats well and swims and breathes normally during and after feeding would suggest it doesn't have an infection in the mouth or throat area.
You could put a piece of pvc pipe in the tank for the fish to sleep in
If the eye was badly damaged it will have blood in it (you can see red in the eye) and the fish might go blind in that eye. If the damage isn't extreme it might lose some vision in that eye.
The fact both eyes developed the white bit at the same time would suggest something other than a bacterial infection. Bacterial infections also tend to move fast and eyes can be good one day and really bad a day or two later. This is kind of weird because both eyes developed the white bit at the same time but it hasn't turned into anything resembling a bacterial infection.
I think the eyes are a monitor and see what happens issue.
--------------------
As for the weird breathing, I wonder if it's the fish sleeping and resting. You mention when you recently watched the fish it was breathing normally while it was active and feeding and for some hours after this. Then it started resting and the breathing pattern changed. It might be that particular fish has a weird breathing pattern when resting. This might not be documented because most people don't watch their fish that closely.
Regarding the breathing issue. I would see how the fish goes over the next month with the clean water (nitrate free tap water thanks to the nitra-zorb). Update this thread if there's a change.
These fish are nocturnal so sleeping during the day (when the tank light is on) is normal for them. If the fish is breathing normally for 12-16 hours a day and breathes unusually for 8 hours, then it might be the fish's sleep breathing pattern that you are seeing. If this is the case, record it in high-def and keep it for scientific reasons.
The fact the fish eats well and swims and breathes normally during and after feeding would suggest it doesn't have an infection in the mouth or throat area.
You could put a piece of pvc pipe in the tank for the fish to sleep in
I'm starting to wonder the same too. But it's just weird he was completely normal for all these years we've had him, then decided to do this out of the blue.
Perhaps the nitrates did some long-lasting damage on him? Then again, that week long period of seemingly complete recovery, plus the current on-and-off behavior just confuses me.
Realistically, it's more like he breathes normally for 8 hours, and rests dormant for 16. He has a cave and vegetation to hide under, but he always chooses to stay out in the open during the day, near the filter intake. I agree with all of your takes so far, and I'm starting to worry there isn't much else I can do to help him right now. Just a really weird case that nobody else seems to have come across. Thanks very much, will update again soon.
Sorry to keep bumping. Would just like to dump some more info in case anybody has any more ideas. Here are the current parameters as of today:
Ammonia & Nitrite = 0 PPM
Nitrate = ~7.5 PPM
KH = 2
GH = 3
pH = 7.5 (seems stable around the clock right now)
Temperature ~= 25 °C (or 77 °F)
I now also have a video of him darting to the surface for air during the day. It shows him "coughing" or inhaling a few times upon returning to the bottom, before his mouth folds up again and he stops moving or breathing normally:
Ammonia & Nitrite = 0 PPM
Nitrate = ~7.5 PPM
KH = 2
GH = 3
pH = 7.5 (seems stable around the clock right now)
Temperature ~= 25 °C (or 77 °F)
I now also have a video of him darting to the surface for air during the day. It shows him "coughing" or inhaling a few times upon returning to the bottom, before his mouth folds up again and he stops moving or breathing normally:
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I'm assuming the coughing thing is the fish swallowing air. It doesn't lookk too bad from a colour or movement perspective. I would monitor and keep using the nitrate removing stuff and see how it goes over the next few weeks. Poisoning takes a while to get over in all animals so it will be a couple of weeks of good water before you see a change, if nitrates were the problem.
I’m glad to report that my pleco is breathing and swimming normally now, and has been for the past 2 weeks.
The thing that concerns me now is that both his eyes seem to have progressed:
Instead of a “cloudiness”, there seems to be a solid patch forming. It’s happening on both eyes, “over” the iris operculum, and it still looks like it’s limited to the cornea, but I’m a bit concerned.
It’s not affecting his behaviour, and the guppies are still doing fine. I’m still doing my water changes but I have been tapering off, and the cloudy eyes actually began just before I really ramped up the water changes.
Any clues or actions I should take now?
The thing that concerns me now is that both his eyes seem to have progressed:
Instead of a “cloudiness”, there seems to be a solid patch forming. It’s happening on both eyes, “over” the iris operculum, and it still looks like it’s limited to the cornea, but I’m a bit concerned.
It’s not affecting his behaviour, and the guppies are still doing fine. I’m still doing my water changes but I have been tapering off, and the cloudy eyes actually began just before I really ramped up the water changes.
Any clues or actions I should take now?
Good to hear the breathing appears better, but not so good about the eyes. It might be cataracts forming on the eyes, in which case there's nothing you can do about it. If it is cataracts the fish will end up blind and you will have to keep everything in the tank in its place and not move stuff around. The fish is naturally nocturnal so should be ok if it goes blind.
If it was a bacterial infection I would have expected to see a much more advanced case with possible swelling of the eye. If you could post more pictures showing both sides of the fish and not as close up as the latest picture, it might offer more info but right now I think it's cataracts.
If you wanted to try something you could try a broad spectrum medication that treats bacteria, fungus and protozoan infections but I doubt it will help. Don't use antibiotics unless it is a confirmed bacterial infection, and this appears to be moving too slowly for that.
If it was a bacterial infection I would have expected to see a much more advanced case with possible swelling of the eye. If you could post more pictures showing both sides of the fish and not as close up as the latest picture, it might offer more info but right now I think it's cataracts.
If you wanted to try something you could try a broad spectrum medication that treats bacteria, fungus and protozoan infections but I doubt it will help. Don't use antibiotics unless it is a confirmed bacterial infection, and this appears to be moving too slowly for that.
Thanks @Colin_T, here are a few more shots:
Little guy just won't stop giving me headaches...
I considered cataracts too, but isn't it progressing a bit too fast? Plus wouldn’t cataracts be located in the lens, underneath the operculum?
And yet, with his vastly improved behaviour and the guppies being asymptomatic all this time, I have trouble wrapping my head around something bacterial...
From the front, I think I see something ever so slightly raised on the surface of his eye.
For more context, I started noticing the "cloudy" eyes on Wednesday, October 29. He only recovered his normal breathing and activity a week later, on Thursday, November 6.
Could it be fungal? I don't really know how that works...
Little guy just won't stop giving me headaches...
I considered cataracts too, but isn't it progressing a bit too fast? Plus wouldn’t cataracts be located in the lens, underneath the operculum?
And yet, with his vastly improved behaviour and the guppies being asymptomatic all this time, I have trouble wrapping my head around something bacterial...
From the front, I think I see something ever so slightly raised on the surface of his eye.
For more context, I started noticing the "cloudy" eyes on Wednesday, October 29. He only recovered his normal breathing and activity a week later, on Thursday, November 6.
Could it be fungal? I don't really know how that works...
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It's not a fungal infection. Fungus gets into open wounds and in fish it generally causes a white fluffy growth that looks like short white hairs sticking up out of the damaged tissue. Saprolegnia fungus is the most common type of fungus in fish. Fungal infections are easy to treat with salt (1 heaped tablespoon of salt for every 20 litres (5 gallons) of water. Leave the salt in there for a week. The fungus is usually gone within a couple of days of using salt but the extra time helps prevent bacteria infecting the wound. The chances of both eyes being damaged at the same time and getting a fungal infection are extremely rare and this doesn't look like fungus to me.
It's not bacterial because they normally cause major issues within days, not a month or more. The only exception to this is Mycobacteria (Fish Tuberculosis), which does take months or even years to do damage to fish, but I doubt this is TB. Fish TB doesn't normally affect eyes and when it does occur, it produces a growth in the fish and that would cause the eyes to bulge out.
Cataracts are normally slow growing and occur in the lens. Fish can end up blind from physical damage to the eye/s but having both eyes showing the same white section at the same time is typical of the fish going blind.
The fish does still look like it has a bit of excess mucous over its head and face and this might be related to water quality or something in it. However, with the nitrate remover and the improvement in the fish's overall condition, it shouldn't be nitrates. There might still be something nasty in the water that needs to be filtered out with carbon.
It's not the camera flash by any chance, or light reflecting off the glass from the tank light above the aquarium?
You could try adding thin layer of gravel or sand and see if that changes the white in the eye. I don't think it will but it might. I think the fish is just going blind, possibly from old age.
It's not bacterial because they normally cause major issues within days, not a month or more. The only exception to this is Mycobacteria (Fish Tuberculosis), which does take months or even years to do damage to fish, but I doubt this is TB. Fish TB doesn't normally affect eyes and when it does occur, it produces a growth in the fish and that would cause the eyes to bulge out.
Cataracts are normally slow growing and occur in the lens. Fish can end up blind from physical damage to the eye/s but having both eyes showing the same white section at the same time is typical of the fish going blind.
The fish does still look like it has a bit of excess mucous over its head and face and this might be related to water quality or something in it. However, with the nitrate remover and the improvement in the fish's overall condition, it shouldn't be nitrates. There might still be something nasty in the water that needs to be filtered out with carbon.
It's not the camera flash by any chance, or light reflecting off the glass from the tank light above the aquarium?
You could try adding thin layer of gravel or sand and see if that changes the white in the eye. I don't think it will but it might. I think the fish is just going blind, possibly from old age.
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