Ammo Lock Question.....
- Thread starter MattM1124
- Start date
That, the maintenance procedure followed, or the water supply that needs to be dealt with. Until then you are dealing with the symptoms, and not the problem.
The main reason for several smaller WCs as opposed to one large one is that you don't want to cause a large swing in the pH. If your tp pH and your tank pH are basically the same, you should be fine to do a 50% change. I wold continue to use the AL to neutralize the ammonia that is present until tthe tank cycles or the issue is resolved.
I have no clue why your tank would not be cycled after 6 months. What other chemicals are you using? What type filter do you have and how large is the tank? What fish are in it? As Tolak mentioned, the water supply could be an issue but since sheldon doesn't seem to have a problem in the same area, that may not be it.
As to the Stress Zyme, I wouldn't bother with it. It is basically a product that is supposed to help speed the cycling process but in the opinion of most, me included, it is pretty much useless.
That's just it, figuring the difference in procedure and filtration between Matt & Sheldons' setups. I dealt with a similar situation locally a couple of years back. A buddy of mine, angel breeder, was loosing fry after water changes, in the winter. He was using Novaqua to treat the water, which does nothing for ammonia. We are on the same water supply, nearly identical procedures, I use Prime, which does deal with ammonia. The wonderful city of Chicago increases chlorine, chloramine, and other additives during the winter, especially during foul weather. I gave him a bottle of Prime to try, told him to doube dose, problem solved.
There was enough ammonia created by splitting the chlorine/ammonia from chloramine, which was really jacked, that it was taking out the fry by the dozens. Granted, his bio filtration would take care of the ammonia in several hours, after it took out half a spawn. He would test when there were fry littering the bottom, no ammonia, bio filtration did its thing. He tested right after a water change & nearly flipped, this guy is a total neat freak, spends hours daily with his tanks since he is retired, and puts out the nicest angels in the area.
Granted, nobody wants to add chemicals to a tank unless absolutely needed, but when you have a water situation to deal with, it's either adding the right treatment in the right amount, or going RO, which can get pricey when you are dealing with hundreds of gallons and 30 tanks.
There was enough ammonia created by splitting the chlorine/ammonia from chloramine, which was really jacked, that it was taking out the fry by the dozens. Granted, his bio filtration would take care of the ammonia in several hours, after it took out half a spawn. He would test when there were fry littering the bottom, no ammonia, bio filtration did its thing. He tested right after a water change & nearly flipped, this guy is a total neat freak, spends hours daily with his tanks since he is retired, and puts out the nicest angels in the area.
Granted, nobody wants to add chemicals to a tank unless absolutely needed, but when you have a water situation to deal with, it's either adding the right treatment in the right amount, or going RO, which can get pricey when you are dealing with hundreds of gallons and 30 tanks.
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MattM1124
Fish Fanatic
The only other chemical I use besides the AL is the API Tap Water Conditioner. It removes chlorine and breaks the chloramine bond. My tank is 39 gallons but it's the longer type tank rather then high. And I'm using a Tetra Whisper 40. It's for 20-40 galloon aquariums. I change the bio-bag cartridges every 2 weeks. I only have 4 fish in the tank right now since I don't want to add any more until I get this ammonia problem taken are of. I have 2 tequilla sunrise guppies, a black neon tetra, and an otocinclus. A few questions:
1. Do you think I should double up on my tap water conditioner after a water change?
2. Do you think I need a more powerful filter, like maybe a 50 or so?
3. Should I change the bio-bags more frequently and when I change the bio-bag and the carbon should I rinse that new cartridge off in the old tank water I took out and put in a bucket or rinse it with tap water?
Thanks for the help everyone, I really appreciate it.
1. Do you think I should double up on my tap water conditioner after a water change?
2. Do you think I need a more powerful filter, like maybe a 50 or so?
3. Should I change the bio-bags more frequently and when I change the bio-bag and the carbon should I rinse that new cartridge off in the old tank water I took out and put in a bucket or rinse it with tap water?
Thanks for the help everyone, I really appreciate it.
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MattM1124
Fish Fanatic
I'm seeing a potential problem, and what could be causing the ammonia reading. Changing filter media puts money in the filter manufacturer's pocket, you do not need to change it unless it is quite literally falling apart. When you do change it, only change half at a time, or in the case of cartridges, let the old cartridge float in your tank for a week after rinsing it with tank or other dechlorinated water.
Changing the media every two weeks is way too often, those cartridges should easily last a few months, probably longer. Just rinse the dirty cartridge in old tank or other dechlorinated water to remove any gunk that is built up, and replace it. If I'm not mistaken the Whisper filters have a sort of small black plastic frame that, in theory, is supposed to have enough area to hold your nitrifying bacteria. In practice this does not work, like many things that look good on paper.
Doubling up on dechlorinator certainly won't hurt anything, I can usually judge by the weather, or by the actual smell of my tap water when an increase in dechlorinator is needed. That filter will work fine for your stocking, as long as you remember to float the old cartridge for a week when replacing it.
I rarely run carbon, but when I do I rinse it in tap water first, just to remove any fine carbon dust.
Thanks for posting your problem, many of us get a kick out of figuring this sort of thing out!
Changing the media every two weeks is way too often, those cartridges should easily last a few months, probably longer. Just rinse the dirty cartridge in old tank or other dechlorinated water to remove any gunk that is built up, and replace it. If I'm not mistaken the Whisper filters have a sort of small black plastic frame that, in theory, is supposed to have enough area to hold your nitrifying bacteria. In practice this does not work, like many things that look good on paper.
Doubling up on dechlorinator certainly won't hurt anything, I can usually judge by the weather, or by the actual smell of my tap water when an increase in dechlorinator is needed. That filter will work fine for your stocking, as long as you remember to float the old cartridge for a week when replacing it.
I rarely run carbon, but when I do I rinse it in tap water first, just to remove any fine carbon dust.
Thanks for posting your problem, many of us get a kick out of figuring this sort of thing out!
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MattM1124
Fish Fanatic
Ok, so let me just make sure I understand this. When I do change the cartridge, I should let the old one that I took out float in the tank for a week as well? Also these cartridges come with the pre packaged carbon. Would it be ok for me to still put the carbon in or do you recommend not to even use it. And If I use it I would assume I would just put the bio-bag over the cartage, then add the carbon into it and then rinse the whole thing in the old tank water. Do I have that right?
Also should I continue to use the Ammo Lock until the ammonia is gone. And should I still start doing water changes several times a day or just wait and see if the filter was the problem?
This past time I left my cartridge in for about a month and only changed it when it was falling apart. I didn't however rinse the new one in the old water or leave the old one float in the tank.
Thanks Again.
Also should I continue to use the Ammo Lock until the ammonia is gone. And should I still start doing water changes several times a day or just wait and see if the filter was the problem?
This past time I left my cartridge in for about a month and only changed it when it was falling apart. I didn't however rinse the new one in the old water or leave the old one float in the tank.
Thanks Again.
Yes, you let the old one float in the tank as well as running the filter with the new cartridge. I understand the complete cartridge comes with the carbon in it, carbon looses its effectiveness after a few days to a week max, after that it is pretty much an inert substance. There have been some instances of carbon leeching the chemicals & such back into the water, this is usually after quite a bit of time running the same carbon. It has also been implicated in HITH in cichlids, which I mainly keep, so I don't run it unless absolutely needed.
The reasoning behing rinsing the new cartridge is to remove any carbon dust, it often does have some fine powder to it, similar to powdered graphite. No reason to add this bit of filth to a tank.
The reason for rinsing the old cartrdge before floating it is to remove any gunk, once again, no reason to add this filth to your tank. You do want to use old tank or other dechlorinated water for this, and for cleaning the cartridge between replacements.
The one I had running quite a while ago never saw a cartridge. I got it used, and cut down an Aqua Clear filter sponge to fit. The AC sponges are nearly indestructable, they last quite literally for years, and provide good mechanical and bio filtration. You just have to cut them thin, to replicate the size of the old cartridge, as the pump doesn't have the flow rate of an AC, and won't push the water through a thicker sponge. This is something you may want to consider when you run out of cartridges.
You will still have ammonia until the bio filtration catches up, this could be a few days to a few weeks. I would continue to use the ammo-lock, and change water a couple of times weekly to keep the ammonia/ammonium level as low as possible.
The reasoning behing rinsing the new cartridge is to remove any carbon dust, it often does have some fine powder to it, similar to powdered graphite. No reason to add this bit of filth to a tank.
The reason for rinsing the old cartrdge before floating it is to remove any gunk, once again, no reason to add this filth to your tank. You do want to use old tank or other dechlorinated water for this, and for cleaning the cartridge between replacements.
The one I had running quite a while ago never saw a cartridge. I got it used, and cut down an Aqua Clear filter sponge to fit. The AC sponges are nearly indestructable, they last quite literally for years, and provide good mechanical and bio filtration. You just have to cut them thin, to replicate the size of the old cartridge, as the pump doesn't have the flow rate of an AC, and won't push the water through a thicker sponge. This is something you may want to consider when you run out of cartridges.
You will still have ammonia until the bio filtration catches up, this could be a few days to a few weeks. I would continue to use the ammo-lock, and change water a couple of times weekly to keep the ammonia/ammonium level as low as possible.
I would switch to a different dechlorinator. The API Tap Water Conditioner does not remove chloramine and it will not dissipate like chlorine will so it remains in the wter. This could possibly be why your tank isn't cycling.
I would definitely upgrade the filter. Your filter is only rated at 170 gph which is about 4 times the tank size. General rule of thumb is that you need a filter that will process the water at least 5 times per hour.
I would get rid of the carbon completely. Most of us, me included, only use carbon after medicating the tank. Even if you continue to use it, only change the bio-bag when it is too worn out to function. The bag and the carbon hold the majority of your filter media so when you change it, you are starting the cycling process all over again.
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MattM1124
Fish Fanatic
Ok, so you would suggest to just use the cartridge and not add the carbon in it? The rest of the post makes a lot of sense and I will definitely follow these procedures!
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MattM1124
Fish Fanatic
Which dechlorinator would you recommend I use?
My Filter claims it is rated at 210 gph. Should I still get a more powerful filter?
As I asked Tulak, I could still use these same bio-bags just don't add the carbon into them right?
andywg
Bored into leaving
[quote name='rdd1952' date='Jan 20 2008, 06:39 PM' post='1880680'
I would switch to a different dechlorinator. The API Tap Water Conditioner does not remove chloramine and it will not dissipate like chlorine will so it remains in the wter. This could possibly be why your tank isn't cycling.[/quote]
Any dechlorinator will contain sodium thiosulphate. This will break the bond between the ammonia and the chlora and neutralise the chlora. It will lead to a small amount of ammonia, but will not prevent AOB and NOB from forming. Those dechlorinators that state they fully deal with chloramine contain a slightly different chemical which splits the bond, neutralises the chlora and bonds to the ammonia (most likely creating ammonium).
I would switch to a different dechlorinator. The API Tap Water Conditioner does not remove chloramine and it will not dissipate like chlorine will so it remains in the wter. This could possibly be why your tank isn't cycling.[/quote]
Any dechlorinator will contain sodium thiosulphate. This will break the bond between the ammonia and the chlora and neutralise the chlora. It will lead to a small amount of ammonia, but will not prevent AOB and NOB from forming. Those dechlorinators that state they fully deal with chloramine contain a slightly different chemical which splits the bond, neutralises the chlora and bonds to the ammonia (most likely creating ammonium).
Hydromethane sulfinate. How it works in terms of chemistry I'm unsure, having never formally taken chemistry. Perhaps someone more well versed in this field will happen by & give me a free chem lesson.
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