36 Gallon Angelfish Advice Please

[Trixxter13]

Hi, so my mom passed away 2 years ago and i just now decided to try out her passion with fish, I got her 55 gallon goldfish tank up and running with 5 fish in there currently. She had a 36 gallon that had a leak. I just removed the silicone and re sealed it. In a week i'll be looking to fill it. I've always loved angels and would really like to get some. From what I've read with the size i could only get 2 or 3 (probably just 2) but is that all? Can i keep any other fish as well or would the angelfish feel crowded? If so, what would you recommend? Either way, I'll be doing all the research i can before i make the purchase to make sure I can set them up right. Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated xD

 

[fluttermoth]

Sorry to hear about your mum, trixxter; condolences.

As for your fish; can you post the dimensions of the tank and whether your water is hard or soft?

 

[PepperjacksMama]

Yes condolences on your Mother's passing.

With Angels it's hit and miss. Some get along well with other fish, some not so much. Avoid smaller fish as a rule of thumb. As Chichlids if ii can fit a fish in its mouth it will eat it.
But you can't go wrong with Corys.

 

[Byron]

Angelfish are by nature shoaling fish, meaning that they live in groups.  They are very territorial (being cichlids) and will develop an hierarchy within the group.  In the wild, they have a huge space and fish that are not at the top of this hierarchy are well able to stay out of harm's way, but this is next to impossible in the aquarium.  With this in mind...the minimum group shoud be five angelfish, and in at least a four-foot tank.  In smaller tanks you can house a pair if they have bonded.  I'll explain this momentarily.  A single angelfish can work in a 36g tank, though I personally do not recommend maintaining fish so contrary to their natural requirements.
 
Bonded pair means a male and female that have accepted each other.  Like all cichlids, the fish must select their mates or the "pair" may soon turn to enemies.  The best way to do this is to observe the fish in the store and look for any pairs that have formed.  This is not always easy, as the fish are probably young and may not have paired off yet, and the less than desirable environment of a store tank does affect fish behaviours.  At the young ages, it is impossible to discern male and female.
 
Putting any two or three angelfish together in a small space (36g is very small space to the fish) is hit and miss, and usually the latter.  The dominant fish, being in a non-natural situation, may well lash out at the other oe or two, usually ending in heir deaths.
 
Byron.

 

[Gvilleguy]

Great advice, Byron. I ignorantly lucked into having a mated pair of angel fish in my 40 gallon 3-foot wide tank. I bought a solitary angel, and then a month later added another, and they paired up and mated. They get along very well and mate every 10 days or so. They also get along with the rest of my stock: Neon Tetras (yes, Angels can eat these, but mine have not), Zebras/Glofish, Rummy-nosed Tetras, and Rasboras. I suspect it might have helped that I bought the Angels when they were small, and put them in an established community tank already full of the smaller fish. The Angels "grew up" around the other fish.

I like the angel fish, but if I could do it over again, I would not get them in my 40 gallon. One of the two angels is quite large now, and, while I feel like he is not having problems, the tank seems just a smidge too small for him.

 

[Trixxter13]

Sorry to hear about your mum, trixxter; condolences.

As for your fish; can you post the dimensions of the tank and whether your water is hard or soft?

Firstly, thank you and everyone else for being so courteous. You guys are awesome!
As for the tank it's 30 x 12 x 23. As for water hardness if the water bottle dish soap trick actually works then my water is soft.

 

[Byron]

As for the tank it's 30 x 12 x 23. As for water hardness if the water bottle dish soap trick actually works then my water is soft.
 

 
You/we need to pin this down more accurately.  Some fish willonly manage in soft water, some only in moderatel hard, and many others somewhere in between.
 
As you are in the US, check your municipal water authority's website if they have one; water data is usually included.  Or you can call them.  We need to know the GH (general hardness, total hardness), KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity), and pH.  The latter is worth knowing, but it is the first (GH) that is the important parameter.

 

[Trixxter13]

As for the tank it's 30 x 12 x 23. As for water hardness if the water bottle dish soap trick actually works then my water is soft.

 
You/we need to pin this down more accurately.  Some fish willonly manage in soft water, some only in moderatel hard, and many others somewhere in between.
 
As you are in the US, check your municipal water authority's website if they have one; water data is usually included.  Or you can call them.  We need to know the GH (general hardness, total hardness), KH (carbonate hardness or Alkalinity), and pH.  The latter is worth knowing, but it is the first (GH) that is the important parameter.

So all I could find was total hardness (81.)
Here's what I found maybe you can see something I don't? http/www.amwater.com/ccr/kanawhavalley.pdf

 

[Byron]

The chart on page 7 of the linked report has the three parameters we are interested in.  The total hardness is the GH, and as you say it is on average 81 ppm, so this is soft.  The Alkalinity is the KH (carbonate hardness) and this on average is 43 ppm, which is low [I'll come back to these below].  The pH on average is 7.2 with the range given as 7.0 to 7.4 which is slightly basic (as opposed to acidic).
 
The ppm stands for parts per million, which is one of the units of measurement we use in the hobby.  The other common one for us is dG (degrees) and you can convert with the number 17.9; divide ppm by 17.9 to get dG, or multiply dG by 17.9 to get the equivalent ppm.  This is handy if you come across the other unit in literature.  So your GH of 81 ppm is equal to 4.5 dGH, and your KH of 43 ppm is 2.4 dKH.
 
What this means is that your water is ideally suited to soft water fish.  Forget livebearers, rift lake cichlids, rainbowfish, and a few others.  But almost any of the species from South America (tetra, pencilfish, hatchetfish, catfish, dwarf cichlids) and SE Asia (rasbora, loaches, gourami, barbs and danio) will be very happy.
 
The GH is the level of dissolved mineral in the water, and this will not change in the aquarium unless you directly target it by using calcareous material to increase the hardness.  Using organic matter like wood, dried leaves, etc will tend to work the opposite to soften the water but this will have minimal effect.  The soft water fish like lots of organics, wood and leaves are natural to almost all their habitats, so this is fine.
 
The Alkalinity or KH will tend to lower very slightly over time, due to the increase of natural organics from the fish but regular weekly partial water changes will keep this balanced.  The prime issue with KH is that it acts to buffer the pH, preventing fluctuations, so the higher the KH the less chance the pH will fluctuate.  Again due to the natural processes, the water will tend to acidify.  Partial water changes again help to balance this.  But the KH is low, so the pH may lower more, and will likely become slightly acidic, in the range of 6.0 to 7.0, but for the soft water fish this is no problem at all.
 
Hopefully this has explained the basics, but feel free to ask questions.  From my perspective, since I love the multitude of soft water fish available, you have ideal source water, even better than mine which is even more soft at near-zero GH/KH.
 
Byron.

 

[Trixxter13]

The chart on page 7 of the linked report has the three parameters we are interested in.  The total hardness is the GH, and as you say it is on average 81 ppm, so this is soft.  The Alkalinity is the KH (carbonate hardness) and this on average is 43 ppm, which is low [I'll come back to these below].  The pH on average is 7.2 with the range given as 7.0 to 7.4 which is slightly basic (as opposed to acidic).
 
The ppm stands for parts per million, which is one of the units of measurement we use in the hobby.  The other common one for us is dG (degrees) and you can convert with the number 17.9; divide ppm by 17.9 to get dG, or multiply dG by 17.9 to get the equivalent ppm.  This is handy if you come across the other unit in literature.  So your GH of 81 ppm is equal to 4.5 dGH, and your KH of 43 ppm is 2.4 dKH.
 
What this means is that your water is ideally suited to soft water fish.  Forget livebearers, rift lake cichlids, rainbowfish, and a few others.  But almost any of the species from South America (tetra, pencilfish, hatchetfish, catfish, dwarf cichlids) and SE Asia (rasbora, loaches, gourami, barbs and danio) will be very happy.
 
The GH is the level of dissolved mineral in the water, and this will not change in the aquarium unless you directly target it by using calcareous material to increase the hardness.  Using organic matter like wood, dried leaves, etc will tend to work the opposite to soften the water but this will have minimal effect.  The soft water fish like lots of organics, wood and leaves are natural to almost all their habitats, so this is fine.
 
The Alkalinity or KH will tend to lower very slightly over time, due to the increase of natural organics from the fish but regular weekly partial water changes will keep this balanced.  The prime issue with KH is that it acts to buffer the pH, preventing fluctuations, so the higher the KH the less chance the pH will fluctuate.  Again due to the natural processes, the water will tend to acidify.  Partial water changes again help to balance this.  But the KH is low, so the pH may lower more, and will likely become slightly acidic, in the range of 6.0 to 7.0, but for the soft water fish this is no problem at all.
 
Hopefully this has explained the basics, but feel free to ask questions.  From my perspective, since I love the multitude of soft water fish available, you have ideal source water, even better than mine which is even more soft at near-zero GH/KH.
 
Byron.

Ah I see. Thank you so much for all your help! Any personal recommendations you'd like to throw out for my size tank?
Also, as a reptile guy it's almost repulsive to think of getting a reptile from petsmart or petco. I'm beginning to feel the same about fish. Is ordering them off the web a thing? Or should I just try to find a good store? I think there's a pretty nice mom and pop store about 40 minutes away.

 

[Byron]

Ah I see. Thank you so much for all your help! Any personal recommendations you'd like to throw out for my size tank? 

 

 
There are many possibilities with a 36g.  Amazonian biotope or geographic, along the lines of a flooded forest, small stream, lagoon, or blackwater.  Similar for SE Asian.  Or a similar aquascape but mixing SA and SE Asian species that would occur in such an environment.  Then within one of these, you could have smaller fish, or a centrepiece provided not too large (thinking of a pair of dwarf cichlids, or a small group of gourami) with some suitable dither fish. 
 
 

Also, as a reptile guy it's almost repulsive to think of getting a reptile from petsmart or petco. I'm beginning to feel the same about fish. Is ordering them off the web a thing? Or should I just try to find a good store? I think there's a pretty nice mom and pop store about 40 minutes away.
 

 
We were discussing something about this in another thread just last week, and I related my three disastrous episodes.  It is well worth finding an independent store.  I have to drive 40-50 minutes to get to whichever one of a couple of these here.  Obviously (I suppose) all fish purchased from the chains will not be diseased, but the risk is definitely higher, and in my case the coincidence of the short-lifespan fish from these places compared to the longevity of fish I acquire from other sources is just too frequent to be dismissed as flukes.

 

[Trixxter13]

 

Ah I see. Thank you so much for all your help! Any personal recommendations you'd like to throw out for my size tank? 

 

 
There are many possibilities with a 36g.  Amazonian biotope or geographic, along the lines of a flooded forest, small stream, lagoon, or blackwater.  Similar for SE Asian.  Or a similar aquascape but mixing SA and SE Asian species that would occur in such an environment.  Then within one of these, you could have smaller fish, or a centrepiece provided not too large (thinking of a pair of dwarf cichlids, or a small group of gourami) with some suitable dither fish. 
 
 
Also, as a reptile guy it's almost repulsive to think of getting a reptile from petsmart or petco. I'm beginning to feel the same about fish. Is ordering them off the web a thing? Or should I just try to find a good store? I think there's a pretty nice mom and pop store about 40 minutes away.
 

 
We were discussing something about this in another thread just last week, and I related my three disastrous episodes.  It is well worth finding an independent store.  I have to drive 40-50 minutes to get to whichever one of a couple of these here.  Obviously (I suppose) all fish purchased from the chains will not be diseased, but the risk is definitely higher, and in my case the coincidence of the short-lifespan fish from these places compared to the longevity of fish I acquire from other sources is just too frequent to be dismissed as flukes.
 


Okay, so I hope it's not bad to resurrect this or if I should post this somewhere else, but I think I'd like to get some dwarf gourami. I also really like tetras, danios and glass catfish. Thing is I don't know how many I could get before i start to overcrowd. Any advice? Also, assuming i should do some live plants. Any suggestions on some that are easy to manage?

 

[Byron]

Okay, so I hope it's not bad to resurrect this or if I should post this somewhere else, but I think I'd like to get some dwarf gourami. I also really like tetras, danios and glass catfish. Thing is I don't know how many I could get before i start to overcrowd. Any advice? Also, assuming i should do some live plants. Any suggestions on some that are easy to manage?
 

 
Taking the live plants issue first...what is your tank lighting?  Light is the most important aspect of plants, and there are species that do very well in low light, some in moderate light, and then there are those requiring high (bright) light and nutrient supplementation.  Knowing the light specs will help pin this down.
 
Turning to your fish interests.  A community aquarium, meaning one that has more than one species of fish, has several factors that need to be looked at when considering suitable species.  Obviously the fish's temperament (peaceful, aggressive) is important but there are other equally important factors that many overlook.  The water parameters (we already sorted out this is soft water, so that's settled) include temperature, and not all "tropical fish" will be best as the same temperature.  Then there is water current (from the filter) which can affect fish, some occurring in streams with more current while others may be more standing water fish.  The environment, meaning how you aquascape the tank, using plants, wood, rock, etc., is important.  The activity level of the species, as some fish are active swimmers while others may be sedate.  Combining opposites usually doesn't work for long, as the fish that is being made to accept what is for its species unnatural will be the loser, succumbing to health issues that it would otherwise be able to fight off.
 
With that background, combining danios and glass catfish will not work.  The danios are active fish, preferring to swim around the tank.  Barbs are the same.  So these two groups of fish in general do not go well with sedate fish, plus being active they are better in longer rather than shorter tanks.  And very generally, active fish tend to prefer slightly cooler water than sedate fish would.  Tetras depending upon the species can be quite active (Lemon Tetra and Diamond Tetra come to mind as being quite active fish) or sedate (cardinal, neon, phantom tetras for example).
 
Dwarf gourami is a bit of a risk these days.  This fish is well documented for carrying a virus disease that is not treatable.  Unless the actual source of the fish, meaning the breeder who raised them, is known, it is best avoided.  The Honey Gourami is a much better small gourami, and like all gourami, this is a sedate fish.
 
Glass catfish are very sedate and very shy fish that can easily be frightened by other fish to the point of refusing to eat.  It requires a small group, minimum six but a couple more would be better, and it will form quite a tight little shoal which further helps to keep it settled.  Unlike most catfish, this species lives in the upper water column rather than on or close to the substrate.  It is an ambush predator, remaining almost motionless among plants until prey drifts by.  This species would be fine in your aquarium if planted, and with your water parameters.  Floating plants with their dangling roots, and a very slow water movement from the filter, will also help to keep this fish calm and healthy.  If you really like this one, I would suggest selecting the other fish around this species.  I would also mention that it is quite sensitive to water parameters, and any changes in parameters or water conditions in general, so a very stable and established aquarium is best.  Being scaleless, it is more sensitive to any medications and water treatments too.
 
Good tankmates for the glass catfish include the medium-sized rasboras, such as the "Harlequin" species, Trigonostigma heteromorpha (the common Harlequin Rasbora), or even better the slightly smaller species Trigonostigma espei and T. hengeli.  The latter is my personal favourite, with its shiny copper "axe" pattern.  Rasboras tend to be much like tetras in their behaviours, but they are almost always quiet, sedate fish, and very peaceful.  And large enough not to be eaten...the glass catfish does attain 3 inches and is a predator, so very small fish are not good choices.  A largish group of one of these rasbora would be ideal, say 12-15.
 
For the substrate level, any of the cory catfish would work.  There really is no more peaceful a fish group than the cory cats.  A group of 12 or so, all one species, or a mix of two or three species.
 
All of these are well suited to your water.
 
Byron.

 

[Trixxter13]

 

Okay, so I hope it's not bad to resurrect this or if I should post this somewhere else, but I think I'd like to get some dwarf gourami. I also really like tetras, danios and glass catfish. Thing is I don't know how many I could get before i start to overcrowd. Any advice? Also, assuming i should do some live plants. Any suggestions on some that are easy to manage?
 

 
Taking the live plants issue first...what is your tank lighting?  Light is the most important aspect of plants, and there are species that do very well in low light, some in moderate light, and then there are those requiring high (bright) light and nutrient supplementation.  Knowing the light specs will help pin this down.
 
Turning to your fish interests.  A community aquarium, meaning one that has more than one species of fish, has several factors that need to be looked at when considering suitable species.  Obviously the fish's temperament (peaceful, aggressive) is important but there are other equally important factors that many overlook.  The water parameters (we already sorted out this is soft water, so that's settled) include temperature, and not all "tropical fish" will be best as the same temperature.  Then there is water current (from the filter) which can affect fish, some occurring in streams with more current while others may be more standing water fish.  The environment, meaning how you aquascape the tank, using plants, wood, rock, etc., is important.  The activity level of the species, as some fish are active swimmers while others may be sedate.  Combining opposites usually doesn't work for long, as the fish that is being made to accept what is for its species unnatural will be the loser, succumbing to health issues that it would otherwise be able to fight off.
 
With that background, combining danios and glass catfish will not work.  The danios are active fish, preferring to swim around the tank.  Barbs are the same.  So these two groups of fish in general do not go well with sedate fish, plus being active they are better in longer rather than shorter tanks.  And very generally, active fish tend to prefer slightly cooler water than sedate fish would.  Tetras depending upon the species can be quite active (Lemon Tetra and Diamond Tetra come to mind as being quite active fish) or sedate (cardinal, neon, phantom tetras for example).
 
Dwarf gourami is a bit of a risk these days.  This fish is well documented for carrying a virus disease that is not treatable.  Unless the actual source of the fish, meaning the breeder who raised them, is known, it is best avoided.  The Honey Gourami is a much better small gourami, and like all gourami, this is a sedate fish.
 
Glass catfish are very sedate and very shy fish that can easily be frightened by other fish to the point of refusing to eat.  It requires a small group, minimum six but a couple more would be better, and it will form quite a tight little shoal which further helps to keep it settled.  Unlike most catfish, this species lives in the upper water column rather than on or close to the substrate.  It is an ambush predator, remaining almost motionless among plants until prey drifts by.  This species would be fine in your aquarium if planted, and with your water parameters.  Floating plants with their dangling roots, and a very slow water movement from the filter, will also help to keep this fish calm and healthy.  If you really like this one, I would suggest selecting the other fish around this species.  I would also mention that it is quite sensitive to water parameters, and any changes in parameters or water conditions in general, so a very stable and established aquarium is best.  Being scaleless, it is more sensitive to any medications and water treatments too.
 
Good tankmates for the glass catfish include the medium-sized rasboras, such as the "Harlequin" species, Trigonostigma heteromorpha (the common Harlequin Rasbora), or even better the slightly smaller species Trigonostigma espei and T. hengeli.  The latter is my personal favourite, with its shiny copper "axe" pattern.  Rasboras tend to be much like tetras in their behaviours, but they are almost always quiet, sedate fish, and very peaceful.  And large enough not to be eaten...the glass catfish does attain 3 inches and is a predator, so very small fish are not good choices.  A largish group of one of these rasbora would be ideal, say 12-15.
 
For the substrate level, any of the cory catfish would work.  There really is no more peaceful a fish group than the cory cats.  A group of 12 or so, all one species, or a mix of two or three species.
 
All of these are well suited to your water.
 
Byron.
 

As for the lighting I have no idea. I do remember it being a very moderate light though. Like i said I'm fixing up an older tank, so I was most likely going to buy a new lighting setup and most likely a new filter too.
 
As for aquascape I don't really have anything yet besides gravel I was trying to figure out what fish i wanted then buy/build according to what they need.
 
 
That's really sad about the dwarf gourami i really liked the ones I saw. I think I might steer clear of the glass catfish for now. There were some Opaline Gourami I was looking at too. How would they do?

 

[Byron]

As for the lighting I have no idea. I do remember it being a very moderate light though. Like i said I'm fixing up an older tank, so I was most likely going to buy a new lighting setup and most likely a new filter too.
 

 
We may be able to save you a lot of money, as lighting fixtures are not inexpensive.  The present one maybe fine with a new tube/bulb.  As to the type, does it take incandescent (screw-in) bulbs, or a fluorescent tube?  Or something else?  If there is a tube/bulb in, there may be some data printed on one end of the tube or on the bulb stem, let me know what that says if there is.
 

As for aquascape I don't really have anything yet besides gravel I was trying to figure out what fish i wanted then buy/build according to what they need.
 

 
This is a perfect approach.  So many build an aquascape they want, without regard for the fish that have to "live" with it.  And many fish have specific needs, according to their natural habitats.
 
First, I would suggest sand for the substrate, as this is something that substrate fish need, and it is a very natural substrate in appearance.  Ordinary play sand from Home Depot or Lowe's works fine, I use this in all my 7 tanks, Quikrete Play Sand.  You want to avoid white at all cost, and play sand is usually a mix of dark tones.  Plus it is very smooth, so no problem for fish.  And plants grow fine in sand.
 
Wood chunks representing tree roots, trunks, and branches will be good for any of the soft water fish.  You can buy wood in fish stores, and though not inexpensive it is usually safe.  I like the very dark Malaysian Driftwood.  Some of the lighter woods can carry toxic fungus.
 

That's really sad about the dwarf gourami i really liked the ones I saw. I think I might steer clear of the glass catfish for now. There were some Opaline Gourami I was looking at too. How would they do?
 

 
The Opaline is a real risk, as this is one of the most aggressive of the gourami.  The species is Trichopodus trichopterus, and it occurs in several varieties like the Opaline, Blue, Gold, Cosby, Three-Spot.  Regardless of the variety, the species is the same which means temperament and behaviours are identical.  This fish attains six inches, though aquarium fish tend to max out around 4 to 5 inches, but that is still a size to be reckoned with when one is dealing with somewhat a feisty fish; I have seen this fish easily eat neon tetra, which tells you that having it in this tank immediately restricts many other fish species.
 
If you're set on a lovely gourami for a centrepiece, I would suggest looking at the beautiful Pearl Gourami, Trichopodus leerii.  Although a species in the same genus, this one by comparison is a pussycat...though cats can be rough at times 

 .  A gourami is a gourami, but this species tends to be much more compatible in a community tank.  At just under five inches, a group of 3 would be lovely, with one male and the rest female.  I wouldn't go beyond this, assuming your 36g dimensions given previously...30x12x23 inches...I know the 30 is the length, but is the vertical height the 23?
 
The Pearls would be fine with the previously-mentioned rasbora, ideal in fact, and there are other similarly-sized rasbora that would work.  Or some of the quieter tetra.  And corys are still OK for the lower level.
 
Byron.