Worried Some Of My Garra Rufa Fish May Be Sick

[Wanderer]

Hi folks.....I recently acquired a double garra rufa spa tank on ebay which came with 5 healthy garra rufa fish. The only problem noticed has been with one of them, the largest- who has a pink mark on the lower belly- which I assume is simply scale damage which occurred during the journey- the others are fine and the lady I acquired the tank from said all of them were ok when they left her. Shortly after I also acquired 15 more, which have all seemed completely healthy so far, no problems (from a seller I found online).

After reading how difficult it can be to breed these fish, I decided that I would like to simply get some more- however I wasn't 100% sure that the fish I had were the original Turkish breed or not, so I emailed a few websites and came accross one claiming to stock the Turkish breed (even though they are banned from being exported from Turkey, Turkish garra rufa are still bred and exported from elsewhere). By pure chance and luck I was informed by the directors of a garra rufa fish pedicure treatment company that the very fish spa place I had visited just the other week, which had caused me to fall in love with the fish, was closing, and if I wanted to buy some, now was the time! I got the fish for a very good price, and saved on the carriage too as it was actually only a short walk away from where I live. I met the company co-director face to face, and she seemed very knowledgeable and fairly ethical.

It has now been a week since I got them. Most of them are healthy, but not all. 4 of them sadly died, from what I believe to have been an ammonia problem (it tested high) which I have fixed now, performing daily water changes (about a bucket a day as recommended as I am not using the tanks for commercial purposes) and some friendly bacteria treatments said to convert ammonia into a non harmful form. The good bacteria in the filter in that tank may have died during the transport of the spa. I have also added some carbon pellets to the filter to help. (I have an air pump too, a UV filter and keep the water at 26-28 degrees celsius).

What I am worried about is that there are just a few fish that look a bit sickly. There is one that had dark patches in the colouration, and a top fin that may possibly appear to be affected by fin rot. There are two small fish that look a little emaciated around the tail. This emaciated affect does not stand out a huge deal, it is just noticable if you look. The fish are very hard to photograph because they swim around so fast. I am copying a picture of just one of the fish, to see if any of you have an opinion. It is not great quality, but basically the garra rufa fish has a head that looks too large for the rest of the body, and the scales on the head are darker in colouration than the rest of the body. At first I dismissed it as a mutation, but having read up on fish TB etc, I am getting rather worried. I told myself to begin with it couldn't be TB because the others would be affected too...but I am really not sure about these facts; you need a great deal of time to research it more. Does anyone have any opinions? By the way, the fish looked like this when I acquired him. I wondered whether living in a fish pedicure spa was unhealthy for the fish and that's why some of them died and a few looked funny, however others are healthy and there are so many diseases that may cause it.

 

[Wanderer]

I had always wanted to "meet" some garra rufa fish, ever since as a teenager I watched and episode of "Fortean TV" that featured them, and how they could "mysteriously" cure psoriasis. I first heard about fish pedicures from a friend, and then came accross one in a shopping centre I was moving too, and resisted the urge to go in and try it as it was a bit expensive. Finally, I couldn't resist it anymore and went in one day. The experience was strange for the first few seconds.....then just wonderful. It felt like foot massage by these many mini expert creatures. I have also always had a soft spot for loach/ catfish looking fish that suck the sides of the tank (garra are Cyprinids). I don't really agree with keeping animals in captivity, but I thought maybe I could allow myself to get away with keeping some of these, if I was able to find a place I could acquire them from, and provide an adequate environment. And hey presto.....I managed to find these!

Now having done research, having sat and observed the fish, and having thought about it some more....I really am more concerned that using these fish for commercial purposes is indeed inhumane to them. Whilst it is a myth that they do not only feed on human skin if they are starved (I have fed mine well and gad them still do it after being fed) and something they will do to people in their natural environment anyway, I have other concerns. Garra Rufa fish spa companies prefer to use exported, wild caught garra rufa fish, because they are better pedicurists, because their "survival instinct is stronger". These are the Turkish breed, exported from Turkey while it was still legal and bred in Singapore and other places. I think this is more inhamane as a creature's natural environment will always surpass anything we can give them in captivity. Unless we gave them perhaps something the size of a public swimming pool and made it really nice?

I find it interesting that my garra rufa have such an intense aversion to fishing nets- when I have used them to try and catch them from one tank to get them more evenly distributed in both tanks. This has been extremely difficult...I have only succeeded with a few! I don't like to try to do it for too long because I know it stresses them. Even when the fishing net is lying still on the bottom of the tank, the fish all stay well clear of it, even when I am not touching it. When it is removed, they begin to swim freely in that area again. Yet if you put your hand etc in the tank they will swim towards it if you try to scoop one up, however gently, they know to swim immediately away, and they are very good at it! I don't think fish are stupid at all. They definitely appear to have strong negative associations with fishing nets.

The other issue that concerns me is just how do remaining residues of lotions and other products on people's skin affect the fish? Customers have to wash their feet before entering a spa, but this may not be sufficient to remove all of the residues, and only small amounts would be required to affect the tiny, sensitive fish's bodies, which of course adds up every time they attend to another customer.

Oh, and I live in the UK- fish pedicures are still legal here. And the place I referred to closed down apparently due to lack of business.

 

[Wanderer]

I emailed the supplier of my garra rufa this morning, enclosing the picture above, and she said that the dark patches are "breeding tubercules" and nothing to worry about.

 

[fluttermoth]

Hi, I'm sorry you haven't had a reply yet; it's quite hard to read through all that!

First of all; breeding tubercles; bah, that woman doesn't know what she's on about. They would be small slightly raised, pimple looking areas on the fish's gill plates and, possibly front fins, not what you're describing.

99.999% or fish 'diseases' turn out to be wholly or partly down to poor water quality. You said your ammonia had tested 'high'; what exactly was the level; also what's the level of nitrite and nitrate?

In the meantime, do as many big water changes as you can; draining the tank down, leaving just enough water for the fish to swim upright before refilling and doing that every day (not forgetting to dechlorinated and temperature match the new water) is your best bet for helping these.

I feel I ought to warn you that raised ammonia levels can damage fish's long term health, even once the ammonia is lowered, so there may not be much you can do.

 

[Wanderer]

Thanks, Fluttermoth for your reply I figured that the reason i hadnt had any replies was because i typed too much! I might start another thread on garra rufa soon with less text. In the past i've worried that my posts were sometimes too brief, when active on other forums lol. Well, to answer your questions, the ammonia level in the biggest tank with the fish from the spa was at the highest level on the test, dark green, indicating danger- BUT only for a couple of days at the most, then i quickly did a good water change, bought some carbon for the filter and i add stress zyme now with each water change. I was advised to change about a bucket a day, thats about 10 litres a day. Each tank has around 90 litres inside in total. Sometimes i change 18 litres a day. I always use a conditioner and regularly test the water with full kits. However, i think the fish had those patches and that shape already, when i got him.

 

[fluttermoth]

Any level of ammonia over 0.25ppm can be lethal to fish, and exposure to it can damage the fish's gills, leaving them unable to take oxygen from the water properly, so high ammonia is a very serious thing, however long the exposure to it was.

Could you post a full set of your test results please?

As for your poorly fish...it's very hard to tell exactly what's wrong with the little chap. It's obviously a very sick fish, but I can't identify what might be wrong with it though.

I very much doubt it's fish TB; that's vanishingly rare and most fishkeepers never, ever come across it. You could try treating with a general anti-bacterial (I use Myxazin), but once fish start looking like that, they very often don't make it, I'm afraid

 

[Wanderer]

Thanks Fluttermoth. Unfortunately i didnt keep the test results, i just know according to the testing kit guide all the other levels were in normal and healthy range, ph is around 7 or so. The ammonia thing now reads 0. Most of the fish look ok, especially the bigger healthy looking ones, i guess they were lucky. These fish all shared a tank in the spa treatment place but i think the tank may actually be overcrowded by aquarian recommendations. I am not sure how many there are. Maybe 20 in the smaller tank and 50 in the other, each tank holds about 90 litres of water. The stress zyme and carbon seem to be controlling the ammonia now. I've had 4 fish die around the time the ammonia was high but none recently.

 

[Wanderer]

I got worried about the possibility of TB because two of the smaller fish seem to have that bent spine described in the symptoms. However i realized with them being so small and young that they must have been bred at the spa. The worker there told me that they hadnt needed any imports for a very long time, i think he said over a year. So extremely unlikely indeed a captive bred would have Tb. I guess the little guys just arent too healthy. They look kind of under weight. I have been trying to make sure the fish are well fed without over doing it. They like algae wafers. I also got some miramo balls i was going to put in the tank until i realized they were an algae plant, not moss lol, but i let them enjoy nibbling for a few minutes when they came. I also have ordered some bloodworm pellets to give once a week or so for a change. Anyway, perhaps the fish in the picture i posted got inflamed breeding tubercles or something? I have been trying to move the fish in the more crowded tank to the other tank gradually, but they are very difficult to catch and i hate to stress them.

 

[Wanderer]

Oh, and i have a treatment i can give them by the King British brand, the active ingrediant is silver proteinate. However it says to remove the carbon during the treatment and i dont like the thought of doing this in case the ammonia problem returns. I use APL Stress Coat though to condition the water and i double the dose sometimes as it says you can do, to help the fishes fins and scales. I'm on a train at the moment and cant remember the exact name of the medicine. Typing loads to pass the time.

Just remembered the name. It is called "Disease Clear".

 

[fluttermoth]

Carbon does not remove ammonia, nitrite or nitrate from the water.

I doubt your fish have any diseases at all. Their problems come down, putting it bluntly, to ammonia poisoning and poor water quality from living in overstocked, crowded tanks.

I'm afraid you're going to have to either rehome some fish or buy a much, much larger tank.

 

[Wanderer]

Carbon does not remove ammonia, nitrite or nitrate from the water.

I doubt your fish have any diseases at all. Their problems come down, putting it bluntly, to ammonia poisoning and poor water quality from living in overstocked, crowded tanks.

I'm afraid you're going to have to either rehome some fish or buy a much, much larger tank.

I agree, you are most likely right. I just got back from a weekend away....thought I could get away without changing the water for a couple of days as I did a good change before I left....there is a little ammonia detected again and I wasn't sure that they looked too good. I found a carcass (the flesh recycled by the others, as they will do), I think it was the one with the large head. My husband was at home to keep an eye on the fish and feed them for me (no more than what I had been giving them). I just put some APL ammo lock in to remedy the problem short term. It says on the bottle that you need to wash your skin thoroughly if it gets onto you, so not sure about touching the water, surely it can't be that bad if it is safe for the fish.....should be ok once diluted......

I feel a bit depressed now, I'm worried now that the outlook for the fish may not be great. I wanted to take good care of them and for them to be contented and healthy.

It says on a guide online for how many tropical fish can be kept in an aquarium, that a fish measuring 2.5cm needs 2.25 liters each....my fish vary in size, many are around that size, a few are twice that. Not sure what the best thing is now, will need to think about it later.

Anyway, thanks for your advice.

 

[fluttermoth]

Sorry I can't be more positive

The 'guideline' is 2.5cms to every 4.5l (1" per gallon, if your head is in Imperial), not 2.25l. The thing is, to use those sorts of guidelines, you have to use the eventual, adult size of the fish (which is 14cms/5.5" in the case of Garra rufa), not the size they are now, or they don't have enough room to grow.

 

[Wanderer]

Sorry I can't be more positive

The 'guideline' is 2.5cms to every 4.5l (1" per gallon, if your head is in Imperial), not 2.25l. The thing is, to use those sorts of guidelines, you have to use the eventual, adult size of the fish (which is 14cms/5.5" in the case of Garra rufa), not the size they are now, or they don't have enough room to grow.

I used this link: http/aquadaily.com/2009/01/23/how-many-fish-can-you-keep-in-your-tank/ which says that tropical fish need less than coldwater fish. I've read that garra rufa fish do not grow that big in captivity- they only grow to around 3 inches or 3.5 inches.....in the wild they grow to around 10 cms but some of the largest have been found to be as big as what you said.

The tank I have them in is a proper spa set up, with a huge filter in the back (layers of ceramic media, sponges and filter wool). It also has a UV filter, airstones, air pump etc.

Anyway, I'm guessing that I need to get down to around 10 fish per tank maybe. I have advertised the fish in a fish/ aquarium classifields this morning.

One more question I have is about the filter....I have read on aquarium shop websites that the sponges need changing every now and then and a few of the ceramic media pieces need changing every now and then. The lady in the garra rufa spa place told me I shouldn't ever change the sponges. She said I just need to change the wool whenever it gets really dirty. Is this true?

It's weird, but my fish seem to look a different colour in the mornings, I have noticed, than the night.....they look paler at night. I didn't think they looked so bad today.

My tanks:
(I took this picture before I got the big batch of fish from the spa place.....I have also removed the gravel because the lady told me that it stops the filter working as well....I thought of getting plants but I think the fish would eat them, lol).

 

[fluttermoth]

I used this link: http/aquadaily.com/2009/01/23/how-many-fish-can-you-keep-in-your-tank/ which says that tropical fish need less than coldwater fish. I've read that garra rufa fish do not grow that big in captivity- they only grow to around 3 inches or 3.5 inches.....in the wild they grow to around 10 cms but some of the largest have been found to be as big as what you said.

I would consider a 1" per 0.5 gallons a very heavy stocking; alright in a well matured tank (and by that I mean over a year old) with small, slim bodied fish and plenty of live plants, but not in a new tank with larger, messier fish, like G. rufa.

The tank I have them in is a proper spa set up, with a huge filter in the back (layers of ceramic media, sponges and filter wool). It also has a UV filter, airstones, air pump etc.

The filter is only as good as the bacteria living in it. When you see no ammonia or nitrite for a week you'll be cycled; ie have enough of the right sort of bacteria, living inthe filter, to process all the wastes produced by the fish

Anyway, I'm guessing that I need to get down to around 10 fish per tank maybe. I have advertised the fish in a fish/ aquarium classifields this morning.

Yep, those would be much more sensible numbers! hope you find homes for the others.

One more question I have is about the filter....I have read on aquarium shop websites that the sponges need changing every now and then and a few of the ceramic media pieces need changing every now and then. The lady in the garra rufa spa place told me I shouldn't ever change the sponges. She said I just need to change the wool whenever it gets really dirty. Is this true?

Yes, it is true. If you throw away your old media, you'll be throwing away all those good bacteria and throwing your tank into a new cycle, with raised ammonia. The wool doesn't hold many bacteria (it doesn't make a very good 'home' for them), so you can safely replace that when it gets clogged; it's there purely for mechanical filtration. All the other stuff you rinse gently, in some old tank water, just to get any lumps or dirt off, and put back in the filter. I've got sponges that have been in constant use for getting on 20 years now.

It's weird, but my fish seem to look a different colour in the mornings, I have noticed, than the night.....they look paler at night.

Lots of fish change colour in the dark, it's nothing to worry about.

I didn't think they looked so bad today.

Hopefully your tank is on it's way to being cycled now, so the fish should start feeling better. Keep up the water changes, keep the ammonia and nitrite at zero and hopefully they'll pull through (although the high ammonia may already have damaged them too much, I'm afraid).

I have also removed the gravel because the lady told me that it stops the filter working as well

That's rubbish, but you do need to be able to clean gravel using a syphon, which as your tanks are practically on the floor, is going to be very hard for you to do. A thin layer would make the fish feel happier, but you'd need something like this (you probably will anyway; fish poo sinks!) to clean it.

....I thought of getting plants but I think the fish would eat them, lol).

Fish really do appreciate live plants, and it does help keep the water a bit better (although not much). You could try Java fern or anubias (they need to be tied to rocks or wood; they will rot if planted in gravel, so you can grow them even if you don't have gravel in the tank) as they taste bitter and most fish will leave them alone. Cheap bunches of plants, like elodea or cabomba, might get eaten, but it's good for the fish anyway and you just have to resign yourself to buying new every so often. It's like salad for them

 

[Wanderer]

Fish really do appreciate live plants, and it does help keep the water a bit better (although not much). You could try Java fern or anubias (they need to be tied to rocks or wood; they will rot if planted in gravel, so you can grow them even if you don't have gravel in the tank) as they taste bitter and most fish will leave them alone. Cheap bunches of plants, like elodea or cabomba, might get eaten, but it's good for the fish anyway and you just have to resign yourself to buying new every so often. It's like salad for them

Thanks. All that info is really helpful. I think wood looks great in a tank and I read that garra rufa like wood too. I was wondering what plants to get them. Do you keep garra rufa yourself? How much/ often do you feed yours? I will research what substrate material is best and get one of those syphon things. I think the gravel I have are quartz pieces- I bought it from Wilkinson, quite cheap.

I rehomed 20 of the fish today, I gave them to someone who has a tank which is 6 feet wide who seems to know a lot about fish. Hopefully they will survive or if not at least be happy in their remaining days. He sent me a picture and the tank he keeps has lots of plants in. He keeps it at 26 degrees celcius, 2 degrees less than what the lady in the shop recommended but from what I've read within the healthy range for them.

I just wondered.....would frequent water changes make it possible to keep the amount of fish I have healthy? I'm doing a bucket a day (10 litres a day per approx. 90 litre tank) as the lady advised, although I sometimes do 18 litres when I feel it needs it (like today, I did a 20 litre change for the more crowded tank). I hope I am doing the right thing by the fish. I also need to find out if it is safe to use water from the hot tap as boiling water on the stove to get the temperature right for the new water is more time consuming.

Ok, time now to get a bit of shopping, come back, watch "True Blood" then have some more fun online shopping for driftwood and plants!