Who's Fault Is It?

[OohFeeshy]

It's not about potentialy offending the customer.

It's just a stupid question full stop.

I repeat my earlier post, and add that this appears to be a good shop, so comments of 'well it's the shops fault they should have asked' aren't really appropriate. At the end of the day, if someone wants to buy a £65 display fish instead of a 99p tetra, you're not going to ask them whether they do know it's a fish, not a parrot.

 

[KathyM]

i wonder how easily this could've been avoided if the shop had clear labels on their tanks/areas (if indeed they didn't have these already) - say a freshwater sign for their freshwater room/tanks and one for their saltwater, etc - that's what most fish shops have that i've been to. maybe it's not all down on the lfs, although i feel a large part of it is, but how easily would that have solved things? others have said how unrealistic it is for staff to vet each sale, they wouldn't have had to this way.

 

[OohFeeshy]

Again though, the article doesn't give you much info about the shop. The difference between FW and SW tanks is obvious even to non-fishkeepers. It's going back to the 'THIS IS A FISH' 'THIS IS A RABBIT' 'THIS IS A HAMSTER' style of PC, for-utter-numpties labelling.

 

[lilfishie]

i think most of the blame is to the LFS i don't think they should stock fish they don't have the knowledge about, but then they'd probably be empty

 

[KathyM]

Again though, the article doesn't give you much info about the shop. The difference between FW and SW tanks is obvious even to non-fishkeepers. It's going back to the 'THIS IS A FISH' 'THIS IS A RABBIT' 'THIS IS A HAMSTER' style of PC, for-utter-numpties labelling.

but is it? you look at malawi tanks and the likes and i, as a beginner, would've been hard put differentiating - cal me a numpty if you like, but then i was then. of course i believe the owner is at fault too, but if i was selling an animal of any species, i'd care enough to ask where it was going, and advise accordingly.

edit: that was to ooofeeshy, sorry

 

[OohFeeshy]

Well, fair enough, it was a bit blanket, but still. It wasn't a cheap fish, it wasn't immediately obvious it was for sale, the buyers pretended they knew what they were talking about. Going back to the nmonks example used earlier, if he walked in and started talking about how he enjoys growing mangroves, and whether the archers were eating and so on, you wouldn't turn round and say 'Yeah, you know they're brackish, right?'.

 

[KathyM]

that's true. i'm not letting the owners off by what i said. just people were saying that it was a case of don't advise or ask questions to a silly degree, and i wondered what part decent labelling had or hadn't come into it, and if so, would that nullify the argument that to have been any more responsible they'd have had to question about every fish.

 

[dwarfgourami]

I would not expect to be asked by those staff if my tanks were suitable as they know me and my tanks, they at least have a good idea what fish I have and my ability to keep them. If I walked into a new shop and spoke to someone I'd never met before I'd expect a few basic questions about my set up.

Presumably the shop know (think they know) about you from what you told them. You could be lying. My understanding about the couple in the article is that they managed to answer the questions that were put to them in such a manner as to convince the shop that they were experienced fishkeepers. After all, lfs have no option but to judge people from what they say: they can't go round and inspect people's homes, like the RSPCA or an adoption agency would do.

 

[Teelie]

i think most of the blame is to the LFS i don't think they should stock fish they don't have the knowledge about, but then they'd probably be empty

You obviously misread the thread. They grew this fish up to a nice size then some incompetent couple came in and bought it without doing even the lightest research.

 

[fishlette]

i would have to say a bit of both.

all lfs' should make sure when people are buying a fish that it is going to be going into an appropriate environment. i always ask customers about their tanks and inform them as much as possible about the care and requirements of each fish including whether or not it is a marine or fresh water fish.

on the other hand it is always wise to research a fish before you buy it. you can ask your lfs about a certain fish but you are always gambling on whether or not that person actually knows what they are talking about. so research from a few places before buying something new is the responsibility of the customer.

 

[fishlette]

ah, but if an idiot kills himself with wiring or kills his missus who'se allowed him to mess with to when he doesn't know what he's doing that is still different in my view to someone killing a fish that has had no say about what tank they are put into.

responsibility for your own life is different to taking on the responsibility for someone/something else's life especially when they have no say in the process

What about the next person who buys the property? Suppose the wiring takes a while to give out? Surely we are now in a similar position between the new owners and the fish; neither has a real say in what the person has done (unless the survey rips open the walls to see the wiring) and innocent lives are at stake.

Do you really believe someone will then blame the DIY store for the problems?

as i said anyway i don't think the lfs should have to give you chapter and verse, there is obviously a responsibility with the person buying it, all i think is the lfs should go through a few basic questions when selling fish, particularly if it is something that has special requirements, grows large etc

But how much is enough, as Birdie has stated, where do we draw the line on what they advise? If I buy a lionfish or a frogfish, I do not want some attendant saying "Do you have a SW tank?". What next, them checking I have a heater?

And suppose the shop doesn't realise exactly what fish it is, do we then blame them more, or should they then blame the wholesaler for not advising them?

maybe you dont want someone asking you that but geez, it only takes half a second to say 'yes i do'. you might know what you are buying and that you can house them etc but not everyone does. it DOES pay to find out if a person is going to be taking their fish home to live or die. and if the next question is 'do you have a heater?' then i think this is fair enough to. a lot of people who are new to fish dont even realise the need a heater for winter.

the shop ALWAYS has a responsibility to ensure the ongoing care of the animals they sell. as someone has pointed out already, fish are different than puppies and kittens and fluffy little guinea pigs. they have a range of requirements and as fish owners we know that many people new to the hobby just dont know, full stop. they dont understand water chemistry...the dont realise how big some fish grow...they dont realise that section with the really pretty coloured fishies and the nice coral stuff is actually saltwater and therefore would perish in a freshwater tank.

all these things have to be taken into account when arguing a subject like this. you cant just say 'oh, the person should research more' or 'it's not up to the lfs to ask me these things and frankly i dont want them to ask anyway'.

unless i know the customer, i wouldnt even dream of just selling them something without having a chat about what they have and whether or not that fish they want is suitable. its good as a lfs employee to know your customers and what they have. that way you can always guide them in the right direction. this is one of the huge factors that make a good or a bad lfs and my lfs has an amazing reputation. why?? because we look after our fish and our customers. not to mention the fact that when you stop to take the time to get to know your customers and sell them fish that would suit them, you are virtually putting money in the til for the next...i dunno, however long that person keeps coming to your shop because you havent led them astray in the past. you look after the fish plus ensure repeat business in the meantime. i mean really...its in the best interests of everyone involved to ask these questions. and no, its not all about money but i gotta make a living and bring money into my shop and if i can do all these things mentioned then ill keep having people come through the doors. the fish shop up the road the 'specialises' in fish is awful. people come in complaining all the time and then are amazed at the cleanliness of our tanks and the fact that not every tank is so full that the fish cant move. on top of that they dont get any good service at the other shop therefore they come to me.

so as ive already stated in my first post on this thread, responsibility is equal in my eyes and only a dodgy lfs would just let people come in and buy anything without talking to them. to me its, logic!!

 

[andywg]

maybe you dont want someone asking you that but geez, it only takes half a second to say 'yes i do'. you might know what you are buying and that you can house them etc but not everyone does. it DOES pay to find out if a person is going to be taking their fish home to live or die. and if the next question is 'do you have a heater?' then i think this is fair enough to. a lot of people who are new to fish dont even realise the need a heater for winter.

the shop ALWAYS has a responsibility to ensure the ongoing care of the animals they sell. as someone has pointed out already, fish are different than puppies and kittens and fluffy little guinea pigs. they have a range of requirements and as fish owners we know that many people new to the hobby just dont know, full stop. they dont understand water chemistry...the dont realise how big some fish grow...they dont realise that section with the really pretty coloured fishies and the nice coral stuff is actually saltwater and therefore would perish in a freshwater tank.

But why is the lfs different to any other business? Effectively you are saying that anyone can sell anything to anyone without problem except fish where suddenly this huge burden of care comes down on the lfs.

If you are happy for the lfs to constantly ask basic questions, maybe you would like to see a member of Tescos asking you if you know the effects of alcohol every time you buy some wine, or perhaps have the check out staff asking you if you realise that the fillet steak is not suitable for vegetarians? Maybe a member of staff should guard the KP salteds warning you that people who are allergic to peanuts shouldn't eat peanuts?

Also, as I have previously pointed out, in English and Welsh law (I can't recall if the Animal Welfare Act 2006 covers Scotland or not) there is a legal responsibility on the owner to ensure they are looking after their pets correctly. So in the law's eyes, I think this one goes against the owner and not the shop (though obviously the statute is too new to have any definitive case law to have any form of certainty).

so as ive already stated in my first post on this thread, responsibility is equal in my eyes and only a dodgy lfs would just let people come in and buy anything without talking to them. to me its, logic!!

Yet these awful places seem to be able to stay in business while smaller shops that take the time are going bust somewhat more frequently. This could give an indication as to what the market wants.

the fish shop up the road the 'specialises' in fish is awful. people come in complaining all the time and then are amazed at the cleanliness of our tanks and the fact that not every tank is so full that the fish cant move.

Surely you are not going to play the "that evil lfs overstocks its tanks" card without also detailing whether there is a large central filtration system, or some information about the rate of sale and the amount of time the fish actually spend in that tank? tsk tsk almost appears to be sour grapes that your competitor is still going and able to order in (and presumably sell) large quantities of fish

 

[fishlette]

I don't think the lfs shouldn't take any of the blame really. Its up to the customer to know something and not to impulse buy. Especially when dealing with living creatures. Also, CUSTOMERS LIE! Its jsut that plain and simple. Here's a true story that happened to me.

My girlfriend and I went out to look for a Txas cichlid. We saw that a Petsmart carried them, but they were all sold out. There was a couple there that wanted ot buy a needle gar. Well they wanted ot put it in a 10 gallon tnak with a feeder comet, a tiger barb, a sailfin pleco pleco (they pointed to one in the tanks and said one of those), and some other uncompatible fish. The guy said, the tank was WAY to small. They needed at least a 55 gallon for itself and they like to be in groups. They are hard, near impossible to convert to anyhting other than live fish. So everything in their tank wuld probably wind up dead. Nextly he said, since they like to be in groups the tanks should be around 75 gallons. So the coupel went off pissed wanting to see the manager complaining that he wouldn't sell them the fish. Tthe manager said, no your tnak isn't capable of properly houseing it. I jsut sat and listened to it as I was glad the eployee and management both refused to sell the fish... This store has my vote to go to again !

So off they went to another lfs. Well since they were out of Texas, we decided to go to Petco down the road to see if by chance they had some. Since they are so close, usually what one carries the other does as well... competition is great sometimes . Well the coupel was in there. Asking to buy a neede gar. Well magically their 10 gallon tank became a 55 gallon with 2 other needle gars and they were upgradeign the tank to a 75 in the next month. Luckly, the Petco didn't have any, otherwise I would've stepped i and said, listen, these people just came form petsmart, they don't have that tank.

It jsut is 1 example of many that I've see nwhere a customer lied out of their asses about what they had. So even if a customer seemed to know, everyone lies. It's just that simple. What's the next step, going ot the customers' houes to see if they really have that setup?

I would've thought myself, if they are willign to pay that much for a fish, the question about what are you feeding it, is common amongst even experienced hobbists to ask.

In the end, it jsut plain comes down to the responsibility of the consumer to be truthful. I know when I want a new fish I do osme research on here, or I would ask the guy at the lfs if it would go in my tank and if it will fit for life. I tel lthem every detail of my tank, because even one thing off, can just mess up the life of the fish.

If someone bought a dog, cat, bird, reptile or amphibean and mistreated it, we don't blame the shop it came from, we blame the custoemr that bought it without knowing about it. So hy should fish be different. If we make mistakes we need to stop pointing the finger and hone up to it.

Also, any person can tell the difference between a SW and FW fish. Even before I got involved in fishkeeping I knew and any 6 year old that has seen Finding Nemo can do the same. They are just too different in size, shape and color, and their tank setups in the lfs are too dfferent to confuse it. To me, that's the lamest thing I've ever heard. People who can't tell the difference shouldn't be keeping fish IMO.

this thread really is taking up my time this morning lol there are so many things here that just sound awful to me. although my speciality is fish, i am a veterinary nurse and have knowledge on many animals so my store is not solely fish but i also have birds, guinea pigs, reptiles etc i try and make sure all these animals are going to places where people have the right equipment to house them. if i am going to take an animal in, feed it, look after it and then sell it, i want to know that it will be looked after and a few questions is all it takes and i have never had any issues with asking questions and people getting the craps about it.

a lot of people just dont understand the requirments of a lot of animals in im in that shop not just because im a good worker but because i know these things and therefore it is my responsibility to make sure the person does as well. for example, a lady came int he other day enquiring abotu one of the kittens i have there. when she asked for a lead and collar i figured it was the right time to ask her a few questions. turns out she knows nothing about them, this is her first pet and the situation the cat was going to be going into would not have been fair or appropriate on the animal. therefore i would not sell it to her. two things could ahve happened here. either she gets the craps and walks out or she appreciates the fact that, unlike the petshop up the road that was going to sell her a kitten, we had the welfare of the cat in mind and also the desire to not have the poor woman spend money on a kitten and accessories when it would have been a really bad move. its up to me to make sure and nothing will convince me otherwise. but i guess the shops growing popularity is testimony that my ways are fine

as far as the comment you made that if a person cant tell the diff between SW and FW they shouldnt have fish...this is proposterous on so many levels. firstly, when a person is new to the hobby and still learning a lot of fish can be confusing. for instance, we have a bunch of Coral Gobys in our marine tank (the yellow kind). a customer came in the other day and asked why we had two different tanks of the same fish. the first was the marine tank with the gobys and the second was a cichlid tank with rather young Melanochromis johanni. to the untrained eye they were the same fish. while people may recognise a SW tank by the coral etc they may not necessarily make the connection. it never hurts to be sure someone knows. if someone wants to get all up in arms because i want to make sure they are getting the best from their fish experience, then fine. the door is at the front of the shop. dont let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya basically. (no offence intended to christians) but so far this has never happened and until everyone starts walking out because of it i will do it. works for me...no one else does it and they all come to me. what does that tell you

secondly, a six year old might know what Nemo looks like and that he lives in the ocean but would that six year old also be able to distinguish the difference between the two in a pet shop with a bunch of tanks that all look the same.

thirdly, everyone has to learn stuff somewhere in the beginning. ok so in the first stages of owning fish it can be difficult because there is so much to learn but how do we learn??? we research books and the internet, yes. we can also learn from our lfs if there is a reputable one near by. people learn from us as well and as a person in the pet industry a really understand and appreciate the importance of teaching and helping them.

fourthly and finally, who the hell are you to make such judgment? was there ever a time you didnt know something and had to be taught?? i think thats all i need to say. i guess you just need to work at one to understand better

p.s. miss wiggle - this is in response to a comment you made about not winning this fight etc well i say keep fightin the good fight you may not be as experienced at arguing as some lol but always fight for your opinion and views

 

[dc3]

It's an absolute no-brainer... the customer was STUPID and completely at fault. It doesn't matter if a fish costs $65 or $0.65 - if you are going to buy a fish, you research it. As much as we'd like an LFS to educate the customer about the fish they are buying - it's the customer's duty as a responsible pet-owner to step up and ask what to feed the fish, what are the ideal parameters, any special requirements, etc. Sometimes staff will tell people stuff and they just nod >> someone bought a yellow lab and mollies to stick in the same tank - just as big a disaster as a saltwater fish in a fresh-water tank... It escapes me why people aren't held liable for their stupidity... the legal system states that "ignorance of the law is not a valid defence" - should that apply here too...

 

[fishlette]

maybe you dont want someone asking you that but geez, it only takes half a second to say 'yes i do'. you might know what you are buying and that you can house them etc but not everyone does. it DOES pay to find out if a person is going to be taking their fish home to live or die. and if the next question is 'do you have a heater?' then i think this is fair enough to. a lot of people who are new to fish dont even realise the need a heater for winter.

the shop ALWAYS has a responsibility to ensure the ongoing care of the animals they sell. as someone has pointed out already, fish are different than puppies and kittens and fluffy little guinea pigs. they have a range of requirements and as fish owners we know that many people new to the hobby just dont know, full stop. they dont understand water chemistry...the dont realise how big some fish grow...they dont realise that section with the really pretty coloured fishies and the nice coral stuff is actually saltwater and therefore would perish in a freshwater tank.

But why is the lfs different to any other business? Effectively you are saying that anyone can sell anything to anyone without problem except fish where suddenly this huge burden of care comes down on the lfs.

If you are happy for the lfs to constantly ask basic questions, maybe you would like to see a member of Tescos asking you if you know the effects of alcohol every time you buy some wine, or perhaps have the check out staff asking you if you realise that the fillet steak is not suitable for vegetarians? Maybe a member of staff should guard the KP salteds warning you that people who are allergic to peanuts shouldn't eat peanuts?

Also, as I have previously pointed out, in English and Welsh law (I can't recall if the Animal Welfare Act 2006 covers Scotland or not) there is a legal responsibility on the owner to ensure they are looking after their pets correctly. So in the law's eyes, I think this one goes against the owner and not the shop (though obviously the statute is too new to have any definitive case law to have any form of certainty).

so as ive already stated in my first post on this thread, responsibility is equal in my eyes and only a dodgy lfs would just let people come in and buy anything without talking to them. to me its, logic!!

Yet these awful places seem to be able to stay in business while smaller shops that take the time are going bust somewhat more frequently. This could give an indication as to what the market wants.

the fish shop up the road the 'specialises' in fish is awful. people come in complaining all the time and then are amazed at the cleanliness of our tanks and the fact that not every tank is so full that the fish cant move.

Surely you are not going to play the "that evil lfs overstocks its tanks" card without also detailing whether there is a large central filtration system, or some information about the rate of sale and the amount of time the fish actually spend in that tank? tsk tsk almost appears to be sour grapes that your competitor is still going and able to order in (and presumably sell) large quantities of fish

oh what a can of worms has been opened here. no it is not sour grapes. i used to, and still do sometimes, buy certain fish from there that we dont stock. the thing is this other shop is badly set up. there are a few tanks that are good and yes one a main filtration sump type system but thats about 1/4 of the shop. most of the other tanks are running their own filters as the guy thinks its easier for the smaller tanks to have their own. ok, yes they sell more fish than us BUT still not at a rate where i would feel comfortable keeping fish in tanks with that many for any period of time. i know this shop and i know the owners and i speak not out of sour grapes but only from fact. i have no bitterness as im plodding along quite well and am most happy at this point. and just because they have that many fish, doesnt meant they sell them fast. he likes to do monthly orders where i do weekly to keep my tanks less stocked and looking nicer. yes its my shop im talking about but i know what my tanks are and what his are and there is a big difference.

and no the market does not want what they have obviously otherwise this new 12 month old shop (my shop) down the road from the one that has been there for 9 years is getting a lot of their trade. what does this mean to you?

its really quite ridiculous that you need to pick at this. you dont know me nor the shop in question yet you assume i am only commenting out of sour grapes tsk tsk to you for being so up yourself you presume you are right.

i could spend hours going on but im probably wearing out my fingers typing stuff you have already decided is crap etc all im going to say is when you can successfully acquire customers from somewhere else and when they are telling you bad stuff about the shop up the road, that counts for something. im not saying these things, its the customers. bottom line isnt it them that keep us in business and the only way they will do that is if we provide the service and care for the customer and the animals.

and its wonderful that that act says that stuff about people being responsible for the animals and thats wonderful. but does the absolve me of any responsibility if i blindly sell an animals and it dies?? nope sorry, doesnt. any other lfs can be how they want but me personally, i aint gunna fix somethin that aint broke