White Mouth Growth

[WILDER]

It sounds like to me that there immune systems have just packed in.
To be honest you done everything you can, there just comes a time when you say enough is enough.
To be honest you might as well just cut your losses.

 

[mikev]

It sounds like to me that there immune systems have just packed in.
To be honest you done everything you can, there just comes a time when you say enough is enough.
To be honest you might as well just cut your losses.

The thing is that the fish does not look sick. Columnaris tend to make fish weak and lethargic, these guys look&behave perfectly fine *except for the white mouth*.

OK, erithromycin did not have any effect either. Next drug tomorrow.

Given the total failure of antibiotics so far, I'm really wondering if this is bacterial.... Is there a disease that LOOKS like columnaris but is not?

 

[WILDER]

The thing is that you just added to many meds and the fish have built a residence up to them.
Stop- medicating meds can be lethal in the wrong hands, you haved used to many meds on the fish and there immune sytems have been shot to hell.
Only use meds when you are no what you are dealing with.
Sorry but I can understand why sometimes that they want to ban meds to the public.

 

[mikev]

The thing is that you just added to many meds and the fish have built a residence up to them.
Stop- medicating meds can be lethal in the wrong hands, you haved used to many meds on the fish and there immune sytems have been shot to hell.
Only use meds when you are no what you are dealing with.
Sorry but I can understand why sometimes that they want to ban meds to the public.

Wilder,

this is not the case, I actually ran full courses and cleaned up between meds. I did not build resistance, if anything it was resistant originally.

Anyway, a couple more pieces to the puzzle.

The bug is also resistant to kanamycin -- this is about the top med for columnaris.

I did find one med that the bug is killed by : meth blue, and even small amounts seem to do some good.
This also explains why Furan2 was a bit effective: it has some meth blue in it.

So there is a chance to beat this thing by putting meth blue in all tanks -- not a very attractive idea since it will also kill all the plants.

Before I actually do this, any other ideas on just what can this be?
It is either:
1. Unusual strand of columnari, which is very slow acting / reproducing and thus not hurt by antibiotics that work better on faster-growing bacteria.
2. Not columnaris and perhaps not even a bacteria

I'm still inclined toward slow-growth columnaris.

 

[WILDER]

Sorry can't help anymore i'm not a vet.
If you tryed very good antibiotics and it's done nothing there is no more to do.
The fish immune systme has packed in it not fighting off desease.
Contact tolak he might be able to help.

 

[Tolak]

I would try the fungal approach, especially if meth blue seems to help. Meth blue is a rather mild fungicide, try something a bit stronger, Maroxy would be a good start, copper would be next on the list. Maroxy won’t stain like meth blue, and is available at any lfs.

CopperSafe is a common copper sulfate med. You do have to be careful with copper, it will kill any invertebrates, it is easy to overdose, and will concentrate in algae, killing any fish that eat it. You also have to have harder water; a minimum tds of 50ppm, closer to 200ppm is best.

Potassium permanganate is another med that will work on external fungus or bacteria, but is a little more difficult to use. Your water will start out purple, after an hour or so turn brown. You then need to do a large water change, and keep hydrogen peroxide on hand to neutralize it quickly if the fish show any signs of distress.

Beyond that, I would agree with the sulfa drugs. You can contact a fish vet on the phone, it will be long distance to Arizona. Check out http/www.fishyfarmacy.com/ and try giving their help line a call. I order most any meds from them; they have no problem talking your ear off about fish, like most any aquarist I guess.

 

[mikev]

Thank you very much Tolak,

Beyond that, I would agree with the sulfa drugs. You can contact a fish vet on the phone, it will be long distance to Arizona. Check out http/www.fishyfarmacy.com/ and try giving their help line a call. I order most any meds from them; they have no problem talking your ear off about fish, like most any aquarist I guess.

I talked to the guy on the phone, he seems to be pretty good.

He thinks that Sulfa is the best option, so I ordered from him. He claims that it always worked for him, so hopefully it will work here.

(The other two options you mentioned are not very realistic for me: loaches don't mix with copper, and peroxide will not work in a large tank where I cannot even make a quick water change).

-----

Wilder,

Thanks a lot for bringing Tolak in.
It is not an immune system issue, but there are some interesting immune-related twists. Let me make sure that I'm right about what is happening first before posting.

 

[WILDER]

Good luck mikev.

 

[Tolak]

I'm glad you contacted them, I usually deal with Brian. They are the go to people if you have a tough problem.

 

[mikev]

Thank you you two....

I did not get his name, but it is likely they have only one "pro".

Well, we'll see what happens. If this fails to work, I'm out of options ... and probably out of fishkeeping as well...Luck is badly needed.

 

[mikev]

4 days into the treatment, it does not seem like any improvement.

Accordingly to the guy from Nat Fish Farmacy, an improvement should be visible in 3 to 5 days. So if nothing changes tomorrow, another useless drug.

 

[WILDER]

Sorry nothing else to be done tryed it all.
Can you get a pic up of the fish.

 

[WILDER]

Could try swabbing the mouth.


http/www.articledepot.co.uk/article-29320.htm

 

[Tolak]

I would go a solid week with the sulfa med. If there is no improvement put the sick fish in a hospital tank & med with maroxy or copper. Potassium permanganate is an awesome med if used correctly, and is one med that often cures seemingly incurable ailments.

 

[mikev]

OK, I'll do a couple more days, but it actually looks like it is getting worse, not better.

The problem with hospital tank is that putting this fish to a small tank leads to them hitting the walls and aggravating the damage (3"+ Giant Danios, pretty active).

And the problem with using external tools like dips and swabs is that it will temporary work indeed: a meth blue bath works, for example. But then the infection comes right back.---probably because there is some bacteria inside the fish. If this is the case, even keeping them for a month in a meth blue tank will not solve anything. I think potassium permanganate will be again an external-only tool, with the same problem of recurrence.

The remaining options now seem to be copper, acriflavine, or serious overdosing some plausible med (furan, perhaps). Acriflavine is probably the next to try.