Where Do Nitrosomonas And Nitrospira Come From

[craig855s]

I've been thinking about this and after extensive googling I can't find an answer?

Take 1 brand new tank of fresh and dechlorinated water, add amonia, and nitrosomonas soon appear. Where did they come from? Are they already in the tapwater in a dormant state? Are they within ammonia in a dormant state? Are they in the air all around the tank and therefore being absorbed into the water all the time?

Discuss

 

[helterskelter]

Never though about it much but I admit I just though they was as spores or something in the are as they get every where.

 

[Truck]

I believe they're already in the water.

 

[Bignose]

I believe they're already in the water.

I think that this what most of the evidence points to today.

He had a good discussion on this a while back: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=161413

Basically, I found research that indicated that the ammonia oxidizing bacteria can easily grow at the water companies and it is becoming an increasing issue of what to do with them. In all likelihood, the bacteria that made it into your tank came from the water company itself.

 

[kribensis12]

Then why does it take so long for a tank to cycle? If I were to take a sponge, and pop it into a tank of mine right now, and next week throw it into a new, uncycled tank, there would already be enough bacteria to sustain a small population of fish. Then why does it take up to 8 weeks in a tank without a sponge?

 

[craig855s]

And if chlorinated water from the water companies already has the bacteria in it...surviving..then why is chlorine so terrible for the filter? and how come nitrospira take ages to get going in a new tank, but if a tiny bit of mature media is used the nitrospira on that media can multiply massively in a very short space of time..

 

[Truck]

And if chlorinated water from the water companies already has the bacteria in it...surviving..then why is chlorine so terrible for the filter?

It isn't really that bad, there isn't enough chlorine to kill a whole colony, but it will take a considerable knock to the colony.

 

[OldMan47]

I believe it was here that I saw this done mathematically but the real answer seems to be that the surviving bacteria in a chlorinated water supply are small in number. If you have maybe a dozen in the tank day 1 and they double every day, it takes a long time to build as many bacteria as are present on even a small sample of media from a mature tank's filter. Once the population is large, doubling every day can produce dramatic increases in numbers because the starting point is that much higher. Chlorination is fairly effective at killing bacteria in water supplies, which is why it is used. It is not perfect however, so we can get a few of the survivors into our tanks to get things going and just build their numbers.

 

[Bignose]

I believe it was here that I saw this done mathematically but the real answer seems to be that the surviving bacteria in a chlorinated water supply are small in number. If you have maybe a dozen in the tank day 1 and they double every day, it takes a long time to build as many bacteria as are present on even a small sample of media from a mature tank's filter. Once the population is large, doubling every day can produce dramatic increases in numbers because the starting point is that much higher. Chlorination is fairly effective at killing bacteria in water supplies, which is why it is used. It is not perfect however, so we can get a few of the survivors into our tanks to get things going and just build their numbers.

I presented some math that matched up well with an experiment here: http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?/topic/226664-why-water-changes-during-cycling-are-good

It seems that I estimated that water from my tap at that time had enough "seed" bacteria in it that they could process 0.000014 ppm of ammonia a day. That is quite a small amount compared most normal tanks fish populations that make around 1 to 2 ppm per day. Also, as above, the ammonia processing bacteria are among the slowest bacteria to reproduce. It takes around 18 to 20 hours for them to double, or just rule of thumb, once per day. I think that an average bacteria, given favorable food conditions, doubled around every hour or so.

The real trouble with water companies having strains of bacteria that can use the amine portion of chloramine is that then that chloramine is gone and unable to kill off the really nasty things that get into our water. And, the solution isn't just more chloramine, because that would only allow the chloramine-consuming bacteria to grow more. This is a large reason many companies are looking into other anti-microbial techniques. Ozone is one that is becoming more and more common.

 

[tea cup ruskey]

eer we goo they genneraly apper in raw sewidge however remembering our water tap water is recycled however most of the spores are killed they also have a photo period so the tinyiest spores start to develop whithin seconds in mains water after leaving purification units clorine chloromine contaminates kill these spores but as soon as they leave re development occurs soon after nitrosomines then soon recive light and obviously heat then the groth re occurs in hours and soon return back to there natural structure. through the process of photosynphesis nitrosonmas oxodise energy from amonia allowing nitrosonomas to re develop a structure allowing the nitrogen cycle to start..


russ

 

[Bignose]

through the process of photosynphesis nitrosonmas oxodise energy from amonia allowing nitrosonomas to re develop a structure allowing the nitrogen cycle to start..

This is quite wrong. It is not by the process of photosynthesis that ammonia is oxidated into nitrite. Light isn't even required. If light were required, how could canister filters work?

Take a look at "Ammonia oxidation by Nitrosomonas eutropha with NO2 as oxidant is not inhibited by acetylene" in Microbiology vol 147 (2001) by Schmidt, Bock, and Jetten (free copy of the paper here: http/mic.sgmjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/147/8/2247 ) No mention of photosynthesis at all.

 

[JCorvinus]

I know this seems pedantic , but i would like to clarify a small point , reading from a biochem report i read recently 
 
1. Nitrisonmas is a NON MOTILE bacteria , meaning it does not produce spores to move , it simply creeps along el boundary contacts, 
... you will see this on undergravel filters , you take a table spoon of mature filter media and place it in a patch at one end of the tank and you will see the dark colour actively spread out day by day till all your gravel changed to the mature colour. 
 
 
2 optimal conditions for bacterial growth i think are about 38 C , too hot for fish , a fish less cycle would be much quicker at higher temps where the reproduction would occur ever 7 hours.  
 
 
3 some species of hertrophic , (very ineffective nitrite eating bacteria ) would double ever 15 minutes , but you would need 1 million times more and even if your bio filter had every surface covered in hetrotophs , it still wouldnt process a tank without large daily water changes 
 
 
4 Nintrosonomas Is a photo phobic, (light avoiding) aerobic ( needs o2) bacteria , slime is good if the filter has transparent sides which some poor designs do. 
 
information i found was here .
 
 
http/www.bioconlabs.com/nitribactfacts.html

http/www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html
 
it seems pretty accurate from discussions with a molecular Biologist friend of mine , ( thanks Kat ) 

just an idea , set up a bucket with an undergravel plate in air stone and media on top of it , ceramic , sintered glass, or what ever , , 
insert heater and raise temp to 38 degrees C , 
 
or as high as your thermostat will go since most have a range limit 
 
add the ammonia , or fish food to kick start it , montitor levels and off you go cycling in a bucket without poluting your tank , 
 
add fish in to your new tank set up add the filter media to whatever filter type you are using and 
 
bobs your uncle tank cycled up inside of 3 weeks probably 
 
 
i recently was offered some MATURE WATER , from a fish shop , thought ok that will get it going till i read the details from biocon , which means that any flotaing bact in the water is going to be , extremely small quantities compared to a single ceramic seed from a mature filter