What I Dont Understand..?

[loraxchick]

Goldfish and bettas are two of the most mistreated pets on the planet it seems to me.

i agree with this. they are right up there with pitbulls as a very misunderstood pet and how they are "represented". goldies are the worst tho. still very much present in the US as fair prizes unfortunately. sad really.
cheers

 

[Amberleaf]

Yeah.... Sorry to say this, but it's not like my friend comes on here *ANYWAYS*, but, my friend is the worst. -.-; I am just *sooooo* confused by those types of people who want what they want and won't take anything else. My friend kept Bettas and goldfish because 1. they're easy pets to care for (I believed her at the time!! I even asked if a 5-gallon was too big when I got my Betta; and, thens, I looked on Yahoo! Answers, it was all like, OH MY GOD, I WAS RIGHT!!!! 5-gallons is absolutely *perfect* for a Betta; I even, on that first night before I got a heater, kept pouring hot water into the tank because it seemed too cold, and Tropica ( ) was miserable, poor thing.

But, mehs~ I'll stop complaining, now. ^^; Still.... I wonder why Bettas are not sold at pet fairs; only, goldfish?

 

[Gurglar]

I've always known goldfish grow huge and need huge amounts of space and can live for 20 years from this site but I always thought fancy types like orandas, fantails, black moors etc. only get to a max of 6 inches then you have your comets which can grow to 12 inches.

Its also so true how people think goldfish are an "easy" pet to take care of as i've been working in a pet store the last few weeks and I make sure I tell people how big they can get and how long they can live and the amount of people that are shocked and realize they keep killing there goldfish in 6 months is astonishing. Also the amount of people that think goldfish are easier to take care of then tropical fish is exactly the same i've started converting people over to tropicals and telling them the care requirements of goldfish VS tropicals and most of them go for the tropicals after my talks.

Just this week they have went around and put tags below each tank with the fishes picture on, the size they grow, food they eat and temperment of the fish and little hints on how to keep your tank healthy like "20% water changes weekly", "only feed your fish enough for them to consume in 1-2mins". Its the first shop i've seen that has proper tags that are easy to read and are on the right tanks.

But i'm wanting to take it a step further and put BIG care sheets that people can't miss and will read with requirements for goldfish on the tanks to show them how much care is needed for goldfish but i'm not sure if the boss would let that happen cause it would hinder sales but I don't see why cause it would promote sales for tropical fish that are abit more expensive and also heaters if people need them here as our water temps stay around 24-28 degrees nearlly year round.

So what do people think on that idea? Have sheets in big print saying "ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT GOLDFISH?" then the facts.

I plan on doing that when I start my own LFS (don't plan on having many goldfish to start with) but until then I wanna spread the word as best as I can.

 

[Curiosity101]

Because bettas are harder to breed and more likely to die when kept in a bag out in the open all day.

 

[Honeythorn]

I always thought fancy types like orandas, fantails, black moors etc. only get to a max of 6 inches

The picture posted on the last page proves this wrong.

But i'm wanting to take it a step further and put BIG care sheets that people can't miss and will read with requirements for goldfish on the tanks to show them how much care is needed for goldfish but i'm not sure if the boss would let that happen cause it would hinder sales but I don't see why cause it would promote sales for tropical fish that are abit more expensive and also heaters if people need them here as our water temps stay around 24-28 degrees nearlly year round.

So what do people think on that idea? Have sheets in big print saying "ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT GOLDFISH?" then the facts.

I plan on doing that when I start my own LFS (don't plan on having many goldfish to start with) but until then I wanna spread the word as best as I can.

I think that's an excellent idea and one I have suggested many times on here myself. The tiny labels above tanks in almost all LFS' are utterly useless. No one ever reads them, they just look at the fish, go " ooh that's pretty lets have a couple " then wonder why it doesn't work out after a couple of months.

I would suggest having the sign not only on the tanks, but on the entrance to where the fish are kept, in full plain view where it cannot possibly be missed ( you wouldn't believe how many seemingly obvious signs get missed by some idiots )

I agree that your manager shouldn't have a problem with any loss in sales of goldfish, since the store would lose sales eventually anyway . Once people have failed at keeping them 2 or 3 times, or little Timmy is starting to notice that his goldfish is slightly different looking every few months, they tend to give up and not bother anymore. In a way they are useful because their small 5 -10 gal tanks often end up on ebay and at car boot sales which are very useful for those of us who keep bettas or like nano tanks.

And as you say, Tropicals are a little more expensive, but if you build up a good reputation as a decent place with good advice, you will get people returning time and again to buy supplies, tankmates, and they will reccomend friends who want to start keeping fish, as such things as what stores give good accurate info and so on, generally go by word of mouth.


But still, less goldfish sold, less inadvertant cruelty occurs ( at least where you are if there aren't many other fish stores ) and those who still want goldfish and actually are interested in owning a long lived pet instead of having something to entertain guests and act as a piece of home design , will have all the correct information they need.

Plus, you could offer them Gold Barbs as a goldfish alternative. They look very similar in body shape and basic colour to common golds, but only grow to about 2.5 inches, and so will suit smaller tanks of 10-15 gallons ( no smaller) very easy to care for and far more active and entertaining.

If the place you work also sells bettas, you may also want to put a sign stating that they need 5 gals safe minimum ( a good use for your old goldfish tank!! ) and a gentle filter like a sponge filter, and a heater also . Just as many people care for bettas incorrectly as goldfish sadly .

 

[Amberleaf]

Or, if they think that heaters are too expensive, then, simply, offer them a smaller fish that's coldwater such as umm.... White cloud mountain minnows! I keep mine in tropical tanks where they thrive but they thrive best in cooler tanks (sub-tropical), and they don't need tons of space, either; 5-gallons is usually good for just a pair or something and in 10 you can keep a whole small shoal.

Just a thought, hmm? ^^;

 

[lilacamy931]

Well until I came on here I didnt know how big goldies got (someone has to learn somewhere). Since visiting many local LFSs now have seen the problem with this misinformation on goldies Had a goldfish when younger that got extremely big for his bowl, cring at the thought now I am educated what that bowl did to the poor thing (he was also originally won at funfair..) This is an interesting thread

 

[Gurglar]

But i'm wanting to take it a step further and put BIG care sheets that people can't miss and will read with requirements for goldfish on the tanks to show them how much care is needed for goldfish but i'm not sure if the boss would let that happen cause it would hinder sales but I don't see why cause it would promote sales for tropical fish that are abit more expensive and also heaters if people need them here as our water temps stay around 24-28 degrees nearlly year round.

So what do people think on that idea? Have sheets in big print saying "ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT GOLDFISH?" then the facts.

I plan on doing that when I start my own LFS (don't plan on having many goldfish to start with) but until then I wanna spread the word as best as I can.

I think that's an excellent idea and one I have suggested many times on here myself. The tiny labels above tanks in almost all LFS' are utterly useless. No one ever reads them, they just look at the fish, go " ooh that's pretty lets have a couple " then wonder why it doesn't work out after a couple of months.

I would suggest having the sign not only on the tanks, but on the entrance to where the fish are kept, in full plain view where it cannot possibly be missed ( you wouldn't believe how many seemingly obvious signs get missed by some idiots )

I agree that your manager shouldn't have a problem with any loss in sales of goldfish, since the store would lose sales eventually anyway . Once people have failed at keeping them 2 or 3 times, or little Timmy is starting to notice that his goldfish is slightly different looking every few months, they tend to give up and not bother anymore. In a way they are useful because their small 5 -10 gal tanks often end up on ebay and at car boot sales which are very useful for those of us who keep bettas or like nano tanks.

And as you say, Tropicals are a little more expensive, but if you build up a good reputation as a decent place with good advice, you will get people returning time and again to buy supplies, tankmates, and they will reccomend friends who want to start keeping fish, as such things as what stores give good accurate info and so on, generally go by word of mouth.


But still, less goldfish sold, less inadvertant cruelty occurs ( at least where you are if there aren't many other fish stores ) and those who still want goldfish and actually are interested in owning a long lived pet instead of having something to entertain guests and act as a piece of home design , will have all the correct information they need.

Plus, you could offer them Gold Barbs as a goldfish alternative. They look very similar in body shape and basic colour to common golds, but only grow to about 2.5 inches, and so will suit smaller tanks of 10-15 gallons ( no smaller) very easy to care for and far more active and entertaining.

If the place you work also sells bettas, you may also want to put a sign stating that they need 5 gals safe minimum ( a good use for your old goldfish tank!! ) and a gentle filter like a sponge filter, and a heater also . Just as many people care for bettas incorrectly as goldfish sadly .

The bettas is an awsome idea aswell cause we only keep them in little cups till they get sold and I have so many people ask me if its ok to keep them in the cups and think they don't need filters.

At the moment we are having this crappy sale with goldfish starter kits, which are only little 5 gallon tanks and for everyone who buys one gets 3 comets free 2 days after purchase, I hate it so much. We are also about to start a sale for these tiny little plastic 1 gallon things where if you buy one you get a free betta. So the signs will be contradicting these sales so much I wish I could refuse the sale of them.

I'll have a chat to my manager next week when i'm working and see what she says but I can't have signs to the entrance of the fish section cause its pretty much in the middle of the shop its not a seperate little room but I would put the signs right up inbetween each goldfish tank so there would be a total of 6 signs that i'm hoping people wouldn't miss. The betta section is ok cause they are up on a shelf on a wall so I could have signs right next to them on the hoping people would read them.

I was even thinking little care sheets people can rip off and take with them when they buy a betta or goldfish free of charge even if it comes out of my own money just to print them off on the computer and go make some copies (even have that massive picture of bruce on there).

 

[Honeythorn]

Try, for the love of god to convince your manager NOT to give goldfish for those tanks. Not even ONE.

By keeping the betta in a 1 gallon tank you are basically replicating a puddle of death. Presuming your usual types of customers are the sorts I'm thinking of, they are looking for something easy to look after in terms of tank and fish yes? Well a goldfish in a 5 gal and a betta in a 1 gal is the complete and utter opposite of that aim. The smaller tha tank, the harder it is to keep stable and safe for the fish due to ammonia build up and lack of swimming space . So the store's current offer is completely useless for the needs of the customer.


Explain that the 5 gallon tanks are perfect for the BETTAS ( one male only for the tank ) , and offer some sort of possible discount on the fish when buying a tank.

Explain that bettas absolutely do NOT live their lives permanently in puddles and hoofprints in the wild ( often a reason people give for keeping them incorrectly in tiny containers ) . Many thousands die in them as they dry up in the dry season. The lucky ones who manage to end up in slightly deeper ruts and pools use their labyrinth organ as a survival method only.

Being able to breathe atmospheric air as a means of trying desperately to stay alive is not a reason to keep a betta in a tiny stagnant tub, and it does not make them magically immune to the ammonia produced in their waste the same as all fish. They need space, and they need a gentle filter.


A properly cared for heated and filtered five gallon will give a longer living, much happier fish, and will not take up more than 14 inches of space if the tank is square or rectangular so it's hardly a vast tank taking up loads of room.

As for the one gallon tanks, why not convince the store to sell them as easy shrimp or sea monkey setups? They are fine for that, and cherry shrimp do not require a heater. They produce very little waste and can get by with water changes twice a week if the 1 gal has no filter.

 

[Curiosity101]

Just a note Honeythorn, although the labyrinth organ originally evolved as a means of survival there are plenty of bettas that rely on it now. Odd to think you can drown a fish, but I'm sure you've seen times when they've been trapped under the water and unable to get to the surface have died.

 

[Honeythorn]

Yes which is why I detest the Fluval edge so much if used as advertised (full to the roof) and used as a betta home in particular . Utter madness.

But either way having a labyrinth organ does not make bettas immune to their own ammonia and nitrites. Which is why they need a filter like all other tropical fish. So many times I've seen/heard people state that " they don't need a filter because they can breathe air" Breathing air has nowt to do with anything as far as waste is concerned. As long as you have airspace between water surface and the splash tray or hood ( which you should ) then there should be no issue with air access for a betta.

 

[Curiosity101]

Totally, I certainly wouldn't disagree with that!

Ammonia poisoning does serious damage. Starting on the more suceptible tissues such as gills and following on to remove slime coats and burn fins.
Not pretty to see

 

[OohFeeshy]

I always thought fancy types like orandas, fantails, black moors etc. only get to a max of 6 inches

The picture posted on the last page proves this wrong.

Well, no it doesn't. That particular photo gets flashed around a lot; just because that happens to be a particularly large individual (the world record if I recall?) doesn't mean that that is the size that all fancy goldfish will/should obtain. You could show a photo of Robert Wadlow and say that that is how big people get; it's not 'proof' by any means.

 

[Amberleaf]

Try, for the love of god to convince your manager NOT to give goldfish for those tanks. Not even ONE.

By keeping the betta in a 1 gallon tank you are basically replicating a puddle of death. Presuming your usual types of customers are the sorts I'm thinking of, they are looking for something easy to look after in terms of tank and fish yes? Well a goldfish in a 5 gal and a betta in a 1 gal is the complete and utter opposite of that aim. The smaller tha tank, the harder it is to keep stable and safe for the fish due to ammonia build up and lack of swimming space . So the store's current offer is completely useless for the needs of the customer.


Explain that the 5 gallon tanks are perfect for the BETTAS ( one male only for the tank ) , and offer some sort of possible discount on the fish when buying a tank.

Explain that bettas absolutely do NOT live their lives permanently in puddles and hoofprints in the wild ( often a reason people give for keeping them incorrectly in tiny containers ) . Many thousands die in them as they dry up in the dry season. The lucky ones who manage to end up in slightly deeper ruts and pools use their labyrinth organ as a survival method only.

Being able to breathe atmospheric air as a means of trying desperately to stay alive is not a reason to keep a betta in a tiny stagnant tub, and it does not make them magically immune to the ammonia produced in their waste the same as all fish. They need space, and they need a gentle filter.


A properly cared for heated and filtered five gallon will give a longer living, much happier fish, and will not take up more than 14 inches of space if the tank is square or rectangular so it's hardly a vast tank taking up loads of room.

As for the one gallon tanks, why not convince the store to sell them as easy shrimp or sea monkey setups? They are fine for that, and cherry shrimp do not require a heater. They produce very little waste and can get by with water changes twice a week if the 1 gal has no filter.

The smallest I would *ever* recommend for a Betta is 2-gallons. Sure, 5 works, too, but.... yeahs. In my sister's room, at first, I had a teeny little 2-gallon bowl without a filter. Well, it would stink after two days! So, eventually, we got a sponge filter for it. Which worked wonders, btw. Then, we cleaned out the 2.5-gallon that we had been using for holding drawing stuffs just recently, and placed the female in there; I planted it up, and put her filter in, and she's happy as anything! The only problem is, the room is so cold, that even *though* the tank's heater (100 watts or something.... probably just 10 but Idk XD it's rated for 2 - 15 gallons ^^; ) is rated for 79*F, it's only around 73*F. Ah, wells. ^^;

Some people say that 2.5-gallons, even *WITH* a heater and filter, will still build up poisons quickly; well, peoples who say that (not you two.... somebody else), let me tell you, that if the filter in the 2.5-gallon is all established and working properly, and if it's rated for like 5 gallons or whatever, then, wells, it'll still work the same! ^^;

Oh, and.... Also!!!! My friend who keeps her Bettas in tiny little bowls, when I told her that Bettas need a heater and a larger tank, she went all like, "Oh, but they LIKE small spaces!! They're coldwater fish!!" Couldn't be farther from the truth, I knew, since I had been exploring on the Web for a while, but.... Well, you knows. :roll: Now, I think that she's *finally* starting to listen to me, but.... Well, her poor Betta fish! She only has, like, 3 left; yet, she is waiting until they die to do everything right. It's dismaying, and I may adopt them off of her *someday*, but, right now.... I'm kinda broke, so.... What can you do with a person like that? Tell me, hmm? I don't think you even *KNOW* how many times I've told her that she's wrong, and she didn't listen.... Hmms.... *ticks off on fingers* First, with the Bettas, when I told her that she wasn't taking care of them right; second, with her 10-gallon tank & the goldfish & gourami in while cycling, when I told her that that wouldn't work.... etc. Now she has two goldfish in there!! Well, anyways; I'll stop ranting about my friend, nows; even though she *doesn't* do quite well in some things, I think she'll learn over time; and besides, she can still be a good person. ^^;

Just a note Honeythorn, although the labyrinth organ originally evolved as a means of survival there are plenty of bettas that rely on it now. Odd to think you can drown a fish, but I'm sure you've seen times when they've been trapped under the water and unable to get to the surface have died.

Totally. I just had a female Betta die on me yesterday, and her head was buried in the rocks. I woke up and found her that way; I didn't test the water that day but tomorrow is my water change day ('cause I missed mine on Sunday), and the cories certainly seem fine.... Well, I hope so; they've been going up to the top, so I may test today. But anyways, yeah; if a Betta fish gets trapped at the bottom of the bottom of the tank somewhere somehow they will die; I've seen it all happen. Not very nice.

Yes which is why I detest the Fluval edge so much if used as advertised (full to the roof) and used as a betta home in particular . Utter madness.

But either way having a labyrinth organ does not make bettas immune to their own ammonia and nitrites. Which is why they need a filter like all other tropical fish. So many times I've seen/heard people state that " they don't need a filter because they can breathe air" Breathing air has nowt to do with anything as far as waste is concerned. As long as you have airspace between water surface and the splash tray or hood ( which you should ) then there should be no issue with air access for a betta.

Yeah, I mean; if Bettas were magically immune to their own ammonia and nitrites, then, lessee, how did my female Betta in my 10-gallon tank die of a cycling tank?! This was way before I knew anything about cycling, mind yous.... The guy at the pet store was just all like, "Oh, yeah; leave the filter alone for a little while, and, TA-DA!!!! Add fish in right away; it will be fine."
Oh, how wrong they were!
Yeah, but, then, I got the informations. ^^; My friend, who keeps her Bettas in tiny little bowls, she just went all like, "Oh, it didn't work 'cuz you had female Bettas together." Which had absolutely *NOTHING* to do with it, btw. But, whatevers. ^^; Idk. She's just.... the type of person who wants what she wants and she won't be told otherwise. That's all. ^^;

Totally, I certainly wouldn't disagree with that!

Ammonia poisoning does serious damage. Starting on the more suceptible tissues such as gills and following on to remove slime coats and burn fins.
Not pretty to see

Ammonia poisoning is absolutely terrible. Just.... *terrible*.

Well, anyways; that was just my little spiel. Feel free to analyze and enjoy.

 

[Honeythorn]

Well, no it doesn't. That particular photo gets flashed around a lot; just because that happens to be a particularly large individual (the world record if I recall?) doesn't mean that that is the size that all fancy goldfish will/should obtain.

Many don't grow to that size because a huge majority are not kept in the right size tank to allow them to grow to that size. I've seen a fair few well grown fancies in 15 years of fishkeeping ( some real beauties too ) and whilst not as monstrous as Bruce, they were all certainly well over 6 inches long and had been kept correctly . If I thought I could make space for a tank big enough for a fancy or two, I'd have one in a heartbeat .

The whole point is a great deal of people don't keep goldfish of either variety in a large enough tank for them to grow to the large sizes they can achieve. Your average goldfish buyer tends to have a tank that is way too small, not filtered properly if at all, and doesn't often take the time and care to keep the tank as it should be kept. A good proprtion of them buy the fish for a child who tends to get rather bored of it after a few months of watching the poor things drift about listlessly in a small bowl or tank until they die .

Goldfish are seen as an easy disposable pet which don't grow very big and don't need much care, this seems in my experience, to stem from people keeping them incorrectly ( which itself is due to both lack of research on the buyers part, and lack of good information provision on the sellers/store's part )