What I Dont Understand..?

OohFeeshy · Dec 7, 2009

Honeythorn said:
Many don't grow to that size because a huge majority are not kept in the right size tank to allow them to grow to that size. I've seen a fair few well grown fancies in 15 years of fishkeeping ( some real beauties too ) and whilst not as monstrous as Bruce, they were all certainly well over 6 inches long and had been kept correctly .

I didn't say they weren't large fish, just not as large as you are making out by showing that particular photo. There are probably plenty of photos of large adult fancies at a size you would expect; implying that all fancies will grow to the 18 or so inches of Bruce is incorrect.

Honeythorn · Dec 7, 2009

I didn't say they would ALL grow to the size of Bruce. Do not put words and insinuations into my mouth. I simply said/implied that Bruce is proof of how large they COULD get. And they could indeed. Will they? I can't possibly say, who can? But Bruce is a good indicator of why you shouldn't keep goldfish in small tanks, they have the potential to grow this large, though the average sizes tend to even out at around 10 inches for fancies and 12-14 for commons. 10 inches is a big fish who still needs 55 gals plus for 1-2 fish. There's no escaping it.

Also, I wasn't the one who posted that photo so you are wrong about that also.

OohFeeshy · Dec 7, 2009

Honeythorn said:
But Bruce is a good indicator of why you shouldn't keep goldfish in small tanks, they have the potential to grow this large

I admit I'm being picky about terminology, but the use of the world 'potential' implies that every single fancy would be that big if you gave it sufficient space. In reality, even if you had a hundred fancies in ideal conditions, I'd be very suprised if any got anywhere near that size.

The purpose of this thread is education of goldfish owners/potential owners, yarr? Personally I think if you're going to give a visual example of 'goldfish are big', it's better to be honest about a realistic potential- exaggerating the size may be good for 'wow' effect, but I can't help feeling it's less effective as a strategy than saying 'most likely, 8"'. Why? Well, assume the 'audience' is the standard 'three fancies in a ten gallon' or something. Seems to crop up a lot. In an ideal world, you would want those fish in 55g or so? Probably more? A standard US 55g seems to be about 48x13x20. What's the liklihood of that person being able to afford and keep a tank like that? Fairly low. What are the other options though? If you can't have the ideal tank, either an un-ideal tank, or take them back to the shop. You do the latter and there's even less of a chance of them finding a half decent tank. It's entirely likely they'll end up in an even worse situation. In this case, which is the morally better option? I obviously can't condone keeping fish in a tank that's too small, but a tank that's slightly too small is better than a tank that's incredibly too small, any day.

Er... To rephrase and clarify- if someone doesn't have the fish, by all means say they need however many gallons, because it's not like they have the fish. But if someone comes along with goldfish in a tank that's far too small, you have to be realistic about what people can do about it, and for example, if a 5ft tank is what's required, then if that can't be done, a 3ft tank is better than a 5g, and definitely better than 'take them back to the LFS'.

Also, I wasn't the one who posted that photo so you are wrong about that also.

Fair enough, you were however the first to mention Bruce, referring specifically to that photo (holding in both hands etc, plus that being pretty much the only photo of him around). And have used it as a reference in subsequent posts.

arobinson1984 · Dec 7, 2009

I picked that particular photo to show the POTENTIAL size that fancies can reach. No doubt somewhere in the world there will be an even bigger one that isnt on record, who knows?

To be honest, I could of picked one of many photos, try search 'large fancy goldfish' on google and go through the images, there are loads of fancies that have reached 'around' the same size as bruce.

Years ago my dad used to keep fancies and commons in his outdoor pond, he had several that were large, admittedly not as big as bruce at 15" but he had several fancies that outgrew 10"

Andy

Gurglar · Dec 7, 2009

Honeythorn said:
Try, for the love of god to convince your manager NOT to give goldfish for those tanks. Not even ONE.

By keeping the betta in a 1 gallon tank you are basically replicating a puddle of death. Presuming your usual types of customers are the sorts I'm thinking of, they are looking for something easy to look after in terms of tank and fish yes? Well a goldfish in a 5 gal and a betta in a 1 gal is the complete and utter opposite of that aim. The smaller tha tank, the harder it is to keep stable and safe for the fish due to ammonia build up and lack of swimming space . So the store's current offer is completely useless for the needs of the customer.

Explain that the 5 gallon tanks are perfect for the BETTAS ( one male only for the tank ) , and offer some sort of possible discount on the fish when buying a tank.

Explain that bettas absolutely do NOT live their lives permanently in puddles and hoofprints in the wild ( often a reason people give for keeping them incorrectly in tiny containers ) . Many thousands die in them as they dry up in the dry season. The lucky ones who manage to end up in slightly deeper ruts and pools use their labyrinth organ as a survival method only.

Being able to breathe atmospheric air as a means of trying desperately to stay alive is not a reason to keep a betta in a tiny stagnant tub, and it does not make them magically immune to the ammonia produced in their waste the same as all fish. They need space, and they need a gentle filter.

A properly cared for heated and filtered five gallon will give a longer living, much happier fish, and will not take up more than 14 inches of space if the tank is square or rectangular so it's hardly a vast tank taking up loads of room.

As for the one gallon tanks, why not convince the store to sell them as easy shrimp or sea monkey setups? They are fine for that, and cherry shrimp do not require a heater. They produce very little waste and can get by with water changes twice a week if the 1 gal has no filter.

I don't think I could stop the sale because it isn't a locally owned pet store and the same sale is going on in different cities where this same store is so I don't think its an option for even the manager.

Couldn't it be called animal cruelty though for trying to sell them in such tiny tanks?

It sucks working there with the bettas though because they are in cups on the wall people just have to grab them and walk to the counter they don't have to ask for them so I never get to tell people about them unless they ask a question. So the signs for them should do some good

I'll do my best in this fight though in the time i'm working there cause there is a girl that works there that is 1 step below management (she steps up when they on holiday) and she knows alot about fish and actual cares about there well being just like I do so if I can convince her the boss might take it abit more seriously since i'm quite new.

With the Bruce argument you's are having lets put it down to genetics just like humans some grow bigger than others, not ALL will grow that big but SOME have the potential to get that big.