What Do People Think

[waterdrop]

I think it would be best if we could get an 'advanced' section in here and then put up seperate topics for each bit.

OK, that's a pretty good idea. I appreciate that one of the difficulties might be that we'd want to get the content first and then maybe reorganize it into a more linked structure after we've got all the sub-parts fleshed out. -wd-

 

[Miss Wiggle]

yeah that's a job for the end, do this with management systems, always got loads of linked documents and you've got to post them up first then trawl through them all putting the links in. great fun job!

 

[rabbut]

Should have time to do a bit on pH tonight. What level of detail do you want? Do you want a KISS version with just a brief explaination of caurse and then options to fix it, or a full explaination of the KH - pH link and an explaination of how the fixes work? Somewhere between?

All the best
Rabbut

 

[Miss Wiggle]

think it's a bit of a balancing act, want them to be detailed as they are meant to be 'advanced' however they're still aimed at beginners who've only just got their head around the nitrogen cycle so you can't go OTT.

 

[rabbut]

A guide to pH crashes and their remedies

pH crashes affect a lot of people whom fishless cycle a tank. The whole process of a fishless cycle lends itself to this problem for anyone who is in a soft water area. I will try to cover how the pH crash comes about (it’s causes), why a stable pH is more important than a bouncing one for fish, as well as a pH-KH link (If you aren’t a scientifically minded person, you may which to skip this bit). Finally I’ll look at remedies for the crash.

pH is a measure of how acidic or alkaline a liquid is. The lower the reading is from 7, the more Acidic the liquid is, with 7 being Nutral and anything above that being Alkaline. KH is an abreviation of Carbonate Hardness, and is a measure of the ammount of Carbonate Salts disolved in the water you are testing. A pH crash is where the pH falls to a very low number as a result. Generaly 6 or less could be considered a crashed pH if that is lower than the pH of the water from your source.

pH crash causes.

Anything acidic in a tank will try to pull the pH down. Nitrate and Nitrite are both acidic, and these build up to quite high levels in a cycling tank. This will lead to the pH crashing if the water in the tank does not have many things dissolved into it (Hardness). Other things can crash the pH also, like peat in the filter, black-water extract supplements, bogwood and CO2 injection amongst others.

Stability is key

A fluctuating pH is very stressful to fish, and needs to be avoided. To establish if your tank’s pH will move with fish in it, I would recommend that you invest in a KH test kit or have the LFS test your water’s KH If it is low, you will need to take different action to another person with a medium-to-high KH reading. The ket to keeping the pH stable is moving the KH, due to the pH-KH link…

The pH-KH link

pH and KH are very closely linked to each other. If pH drops, it is likely that KH will be low. KH basically acts as a buffer to keep pH at a certain value, as the Carbonate salts that make up your KH will bond with anything acidic, neutralising it (it’s a bit more complex than that, but this is a beginner’s “advanced” guide ) If KH gets depleted, there is nothing to prevent acidic chemicals from pulling the pH down.

If KH in a tank is low, the fish waste being broken down in the filter will quite possibly crash the pH. With fish in, this would spell disaster, so remedial action needs to be done before this event. For this reason, I’d look at the more permanent solutions if you have a low KH from the tap.

Solutions

1) In a fishless cycle, Nitrite or Nitrate will likely be the cause of a pH crash, so a large water change is often all that’s needed This method is best for those with a mid-to-high KH reading. This is a short-term fix for a mid-cycle crash.

2) Adding Baking Powder or Baking Soda will raise the KH and hence pH. This method is best for those with low-to-mid KH readings and is a short-term fix for a mid-cycle crash. Use about 1 tea spoon per gallon to start for a fishless cycle and work from there. For a tank with fish in, do not add more than 1 tea spoon per 10 gallons, as it may KH shock the fish KH shock can kill fish, so should be avoided. With fish in, I'd personally start with 1 tea spoon per 20 gallons

3) Adding about 1 tea spoon of coral gravel or coral sand to the filter will pull the KH and hence pH up. This is a long-to-mid term fix. If this is not enough, add a bit more to your filter This is the recomended solution to pH crashes early on and for people with a low KH from the tap.

4) A temporary fix is a product like pH-up. These chemicals usually leave the KH alone, so expect a crashed pH at the next test…

Any surgestions/tweaks?
Rabbut

 

[backtotropical]

Good start, Rabbut.

Trying to read it assuming no previous knowledge, the first thing that jumps out at me is you begin by talking about pH crashes, but don't ever say what a pH crash actually is.

I would suggest that in the very first section you should define for us exactly what pH is, what a pH crash is and why it is undesireable, and what kH is. That would make the rest of the article more 'noob' friendly.

Cheers

BTT

 

[rabbut]

Good start, Rabbut.

Trying to read it assuming no previous knowledge, the first thing that jumps out at me is you begin by talking about pH crashes, but don't ever say what a pH crash actually is.

I would suggest that in the very first section you should define for us exactly what pH is, what a pH crash is and why it is undesireable, and what kH is. That would make the rest of the article more 'noob' friendly.

Cheers

BTT

Done (hopefully).

 

[backtotropical]

I wanted to bring this thread back to the front, so here is my contribution. Comments welcome as always.

Monitoring the progress of the Nitrite Oxidising Bacteria

A fishless cycle can be split into two distinct stages

1. The growth of the Ammonia Oxidising Bacteria (AOB)
2. The growth of the Nitrite Oxidising Bacteria (NOB)

This article assumes that you have completed the first stage by following the pinned ‘Fishless Cycling’ article, and focuses only on the second stage of the cycle.

By the time the first stage is completed (AOB growth) and the cycler turns their attention to the second stage, the level of nitrite in the water is often very high, and often so high that a proprietary aquarium test kit does not measure such high concentrations.

This is because 1 part ammonia converts to 2.7 parts nitrite, and then to 3.7 parts nitrate. As you can see, even raising ammonia levels to 5ppm once will produce a nitrite level of around 13.5ppm once processed (5ppm x 2.7). The ammonia required to complete the first stage of the cycle will often result in a nitrite level of over 100ppm, if not 150ppm or above.

To summarise

1ppm Ammonia >> 2.7ppm Nitrite >> 3.7ppm Nitrate

Should these high nitrite levels be left in the water whilst the second stage of the cycle proceeds, it is often the case that the fishless cycler reports no movement in nitrite for up to several weeks. This is because the level of nitrite is ‘off the scale’ of the test kit, and whether the nitrite is being processed or not, the test kit can only indicate that the level is ‘off the chart’. It will give no indication of whether ‘off the chart’ represents 15ppm or 150ppm.

It is only when nitrite levels finally come down to a measurable level again that the cycler will notice any movement. By this time, the filter is often already cycled and will show ‘off the scale’ one day and absolute zero the next day. You will commonly hear fishless cyclers referring to this phenomenon whereby levels are ‘off the chart’ for a long time then suddenly it completely clears overnight.

This can prolong the cycle as the cycle may be complete (where the NOB clear 13.5ppm of nitrite in 12hrs or less), however the backlog of nitrite in the tank and the limitations of the test kit fool the cycler into thinking otherwise ie. Nitrite is off the chart, so the cycle is incomplete.

Because of this problem with the high levels of nitrite in the second stage of the cycle, it is now recommended by the TFF members that a large water change should be performed at this stage to clear any nitrite backlog and bring nitrite concentration back down to a measurable level.

This eliminates the problem I highlighted above where the cycle is complete but the high nitrite levels mask this fact. It allows the cycler to measure the movement in nitrite levels to correctly determine when the cycle is complete. Sounds good, however there can be one more complication

Although the nitrite levels are lowered by the water change, there will still be 5ppm of ammonia being added to the tank every day. This is equivalent to 13.5ppm of nitrite as explained above. With so much potential nitrite being added each day, it would be very easy for the level to quickly go ‘off the chart’ again.

To counter this problem, it is considered best practice to cut back the ammonia being added each day to maybe 2 or 3ppm. This keeps nitrite production to a minimum in this critical stage to prevent the level going un-measurably high.

If you have a good understanding of the cycling process, you may now be thinking “Won’t cutting back the ammonia mean that the AOB colony will die back”. The answer is yes. However, an established colony can double in around 24 hours, so once the cycle completes using 2 – 3ppm of ammonia, the cycler simply increases the ammonia additions back to 5ppm and the bacteria should catch up in around 24 – 48 hours.

A Note for API Test Kit Users

As the API Freshwater Test Kit is popular amongst the members on TFF, this is a good opportunity to share a ‘trick of the trade’. When using the API nitrite test kit

When you add the drops of re-agent to the test-tube, if they immediately turn purple in the bottom of the tube, your nitrites are too high for the test kit to measure. You do not need to shake the tube and wait 5 minutes. If you do, the test will turn green, a colour which is not represented on the colour chart.

Please note: Unless otherwise stated, all text and images in this post are copyright Backtotropical, 2009.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

Looks good BTT,

I pm'd this topic to rdd to get some mods feedback a few days ago but he's not replied. will maybe post it up in the board announcements and suggestions forum in a bit.

 

[ranjohns]

Thanks for offering to follow our fishless cycles. As of Feb. 2 I'm working under the assumption that the tank has entered the 2nd phase of the cycle. My plan is to add 2ml of 10% solution of clear ammonia every other day. Please advise. I'll take more pH readings in the days to come.

I look forward to seeing other postings.
Best,
Randy
Indianapolis

set up:
30 gal freshwater tank
Marineland Penguin Power Filter 350B
Marineland Stealth Submersible Heater 150-watt set at 78 F
Planted - 20 plants in Seachem Flourite
18 watt T-8 fluorescent lamp (high green spectrum spike) I'll upgrade this soon to a T-5 fixture and lamp.


Date Time ml of 10% Ammonia Nitrite Nitrate Water temp pH test kit API
Ammonia added ppm ppm ppm

16-Jan Tank filled and planted
18-Jan 12:37 PM 3 4 - 8 72 NO2/3 strips
19-Jan 6:00 PM 4 ~ 8 72 NO2/3 strips
20-Jan 4 0 0 78 NO2/3 strips
21-Jan 4 4 - 8 0.5 20 78 NO2/3 strips
22-Jan 4 4 - 8 1 30 78 NO2/3 strips
23-Jan 2 4 - 8 5 80 78 NO2/3 strips
24-Jan 12:00 PM 0 4 - 8 10 200 78 NO2/3 strips
6:00 PM 0 10 200 78 NO2/3 strips
25-Jan 9:20 AM 2 2 10+ 200 78 NO2/3 strips
10:20 AM 0 10+ 200+ 78 NO2/3 strips
26-Jan 11:20 AM 2
12:20 PM 0 0.5 40 78 7.6 - 8.0 master kit
1:20 PM 0 0.5 40 78 master kit
27-Jan 2:20 PM 2 78
3:20 PM 0 0.5 78 master kit
28-Jan 4:20 PM 0 0 78 master kit
29-Jan 5:20 PM 0 0.5 78 master kit
6:20 PM 4 78
7:20 PM 2 0.5 78 master kit
30-Jan 8:20 AM 0 0.5 78 master kit
9:20 AM 0.5 0 - 5 78 7.6 - 8.0 master kit
10:20 AM 0 - 5 78 master kit
11:20 AM 4 78
12:20 PM 0.5 0.5 78 master kit
5:00 PM 0.5 0.5 5 78 master kit
31-Jan 11:30 AM 0 0.25 5 78 master kit
8:00 PM 2 78
1-Feb 12:15 AM 0.25 0.25 78 master kit
9:25 AM 0 purple rt away 0 78 master kit
10:00 AM 5 78
11:00 AM 4 purple rt away ~5 78 master kit
11:00 PM 0 purple rt away 5 - 10 78 master kit

2-Feb 10:00 PM 50% water change

2:00 PM 0 1 5 78 master kit
5:00 PM 2



The first thing to be aware of is that every cycle is different, if you provide us with accurate information about your own personal circumstances then we’ll be much better placed to help you. So start up a log book for your fishless cycle and record your daily results and actions then this will be of enormous benefit to you and everyone trying to help you down the line if anything does go wrong.

Start your log book with details of the tank set up, the size, the make and model of filter and an explanation of how you set the tank up.

Before you start your cycle test your tap water, you should take a sample and leave it around an hour and then test it. This provides a very useful bassline and reference point for any future problems. Some people do have some ammonia or nitrite in their tap water so don’t panic if you do, but do let us know as there are things you can do to mitigate these effects. Nitrate often comes out of the tap as high as 40ppm so again don’t panic if it’s there.

Then each day record the time of your first test what the results were, anything done to the tank like ammonia added or a water change carried out. If you are doing more tests through the day then record the time and the results.

Reporting

If you like you can start up a thread with the log of your fishless cycle, update it with your results every few days and we’ll keep an eye on your progress and let you know if there’s anything you need to do.

If you can keep your results in the following format then it makes things much easier for us to follow. You have to remember at any time there may be 10-15 people on the forum going through a fishless cycle and reporting their results, sometimes we get people and tanks muddled up if you’re not clear!

Day X – Fishless Cycle on X litre tank

Test 1 – Time of test
pH – X
Ammonia – X
Nitrite – X
Nitrate – X

Details of action on the tank, for example ‘Ammonia topped up to 5ppm’

Test 2 – Time of test (usually 12 hrs later)
Ph – X
Ammonia – X
Nitrite – X
Nitrate – X

Details of action on the tank

If you don’t choose to start up a thread at the start of your cycle with your log in and want some help down the line then post up the full series of tests results if you can.

A trend of a number of tests over a few days will always be more useful to us than a ‘snapshot’ of a single test.



Sorry, but the formating fell out. I'll repost info.

Randy

 

[ranjohns]

Fishless Cycle in 30 gal freshwater tank

set up:

Marineland Penguin Power Filter 350B
Marineland Stealth Submersible Heater 150-watt set at 78 F
Planted - 20 plants in Seachem Flourite
18 watt T-8 fluorescent lamp (high green spectrum spike) I'll upgrade this soon to a T-5 fixture and lamp.
Ammonia = 10% clear solution
Test kits used: days 1 through 8 I used API test strips; thereafter, an API Master test kit

2 days later = Day 1

Day 1 Jan. 18, 2009
Test 1 – 12:30 pm using API test strips
pH –
Ammonia – 4 - 8
Nitrite –
Nitrate –

3ml Ammonia added; topped up to 4 - 8 ppm

Day 2
Test 1 – 6 pm using API test strips
pH –
Ammonia – 4 - 8
Nitrite –
Nitrate –

4ml Ammonia added; topped up to ~ 8 ppm

Day 3
Test 1 – 12:30 pm using API test strips
pH –
Ammonia –
Nitrite – 0
Nitrate – 0

4ml Ammonia added

Day 4
Test 1 – 12:30 pm using API test strips
pH –
Ammonia – 4 - 8
Nitrite – 0.5
Nitrate – 20

4ml Ammonia added; topped up to 4 - 8 ppm

Day 5
Test 1 – 12:30 pm using API test strips
pH –
Ammonia – 4 - 8
Nitrite – 1
Nitrate – 30

4ml Ammonia added; topped up to 4 - 8 ppm

Day 6
Test 1 – 12:30 pm using API test strips
pH –
Ammonia – 4 - 8
Nitrite – 5
Nitrate – 80

2ml Ammonia added; topped up to 4 - 8 ppm

Day 7
Test 1 – 12 pm using API test strips
pH –
Ammonia – 4 - 8
Nitrite – 10
Nitrate – 200

No Ammonia added

Day 8
Test 1 – 9:20 am using API test strips
pH –
Ammonia – 2
Nitrite – 10+
Nitrate – 200

Test 2 – 10:20 am using API test strips
pH –
Ammonia – 2
Nitrite – 10+
Nitrate – 200+

no Ammonia added; topped to 2ppm

Day 9 switched to API Master Test kit
11:20am added 2ml ammonia

Test 1– 12:20 pm
pH – 7.6 to 8
Ammonia –
Nitrite – 0.5
Nitrate – 40

Test 2 – 1:20 pm
pH –
Ammonia –
Nitrite – 0.5
Nitrate – 40

Day 10
2:20am added 2ml ammonia

Test 1– 3:20 pm
pH –
Ammonia – 0
Nitrite – 0.5
Nitrate –

Day 11
2:20am added no ammonia

Test 1– 4:20 pm
pH –
Ammonia –
Nitrite – 0
Nitrate –


Day 12

Test 1– 5:20pm
pH –
Ammonia –
Nitrite – 0.5
Nitrate –

6:20pm 4ml ammonia added

Test 2– 7:20pm
pH –
Ammonia – 2
Nitrite – 0.5
Nitrate –


Day 13

Test 1– 8:20am
pH –
Ammonia – 0
Nitrite – 0.5
Nitrate –

Test 2– 9:20am
pH – 7.6 - 8
Ammonia –
Nitrite – 0.5
Nitrate – 0 - 5

Test 3– 10:20am
pH –
Ammonia –
Nitrite –
Nitrate – 0 - 5

11:20 am 4ml ammonia added

Test 4- 12:20pm
pH –
Ammonia – .5
Nitrite – .5
Nitrate – 0 - 5

Test 5- 5pm
pH –
Ammonia – .5
Nitrite – .5
Nitrate – 5


Day 14

Test 1– 11:30 am
pH –
Ammonia –
Nitrite – .25
Nitrate – 5

8pm added 2ml ammonia


Day 15

Test 1– 12:15am
pH –
Ammonia – .25
Nitrite – .25
Nitrate –

Test 2– 9:25am
pH –
Ammonia –
Nitrite – turned purple right away
Nitrate – ~ 5

10am added 5ml ammonia

Test 3– 11am
pH –
Ammonia – 4
Nitrite – turned purple right away
Nitrate – ~ 5

Test 4– 11pm
pH –
Ammonia – 0
Nitrite – turned purple right away
Nitrate – 5 - 10


Day 16 Feb 2, 2009

10 to 11am 50% water change

Test 1- 2pm
pH –
Ammonia – 0
Nitrite – 1
Nitrate – 5

5pm added 2ml of ammonia

 

[rabbut]

A good demo of how to post info. You would do better starting your own thread realy, as posts that aren't articles are likely to be cut out should this thread get pinned, loosing you a line of help

You need to get into the habit of topping up to 4ppm of ammonia every 24 hours if it's dropped. It would look like the cycle may be done for AOB's if you kept adding it in such a routien, and you'd just be waiting for nitrite to drop, but the AOB's will die back after a while without food, putting you back a few places

I need to get round to reading your article properly BTT, hopefully later tonight

All the best
Rabbut

 

[SkiFletch]

So you guys are taking a sort of "open source" approach here to an additional article with more in-depth info on cycling huh? Not bad so far. Perhaps some more biology inf on what's going on with these processes might bolster things a little? Maybe include the names of the responsible bacteria for each step? And if anybody's good with graphing functions, perhaps adding some pictures to explain the steps? Just throwin some more ideas out there.

 

[rabbut]

Still need to get arround to reading BTT's monitoring progress post

Anyhow, I've just edited mine to avoid potential issues with people fish-in cycling adding too much baking powder...

bumperty bump

All the best
Rabbut

 

[rdd1952]

Sorry I haven't gotten around to the earlier. Thank you all for the kind words on the fishless cycled topic.

I think the idea of a central source for beginners is a great idea but I'm not so certain a single thread is the right way to go. Just look at the fishless cycling thread. As a standard Word document, it's 2 and a half pages long by itself. If you add the other items and write ups that you have started on this thread into a single thread, you are getting close to a full book of info which may be overwhelming to a beginner. It could be that you have to go 2 or 3 pages deep just to get to it all. Sometimes I thinks it's easier to see it on different threads than all in one. Just my opinion though.

However, I do think it would be nice to have everything the beginner needs in one place for easy access. Currently, there is a Beginners Resource thread pinned in New to the Hobby. Few people probably even notice it. It has a lot of links to older threads that are aimed at the beginners. I'm sure it needs to be updated as some of the topics may be somewhat outdated (some of the links may not work either because of past software changes) and there are others that need to be added such as BTT's thread on bacterial blooms. Maybe the New to the Hobby forum should only have 2 pinned topics: the signature rules (that no one reads) and a Beginners Resource Center.

I know this is a different path than what you were thinking but I'm just afraid one huge thread would be too much. Bottom line is that anything we can do to make it easier for those new to the hobby is a great thing.