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What are Cories Susceptible to

Discussion in 'New to the Hobby Questions and Answers' started by vio88, Jul 2, 2019.

  1. vio88

    vio88 Fish Fanatic

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    Are Cories susceptible to salt? Is there any other medicines or chemicals they are susceptible to? I plan to use benibachi planaria zero which says it is ok for shrimp and plants. Is it also safe for cories and guppies?
     
  2. Byron

    Byron Member

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    First on this product itself, do not use it with fish or snails in the tank. I cannot find exactly what is in it (which always worries me) but several sites do say it is not safe for snails. If it harms snails, it will harm fish--which takes some explaining.

    Fish are highly sensitive to any and all substances added to the water, so yes, cories and all fish are susceptible to salt and any other medicine or substance added to the tank water. To be honest, none of them are really "safe," in the sense that they have no adverse effects.

    Fish continually take in water via osmosis through their cells and at the gills; this water enters the bloodstream, and anything in the water gets into the fish. Water is an universal solvent, because it will dissolve and assimilate almost anything. So substances added to tank water dissolve readily in the water and thus enter the fish. This does impact fish physiology to some degree. It will usually stress them, and this weakens them. So it is best to avoid any additives that are not essential to the fish's health.

    Salt is a good example since you mention it. As a short-term treatment for some problems like ich, salt can be very effective, and it is safer than all the other so-called treatment chemicals you can use for this issue [not considering heat here as this is not an additive]. But it still impacts the fish, and some, like cories, are very highly sensitive to all of these. Long-term this can cause death because of the internal effects of salt.

    The best method to deal with planaria is to keep the substrate clean and do regular substantial partial water changes.
     
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  3. vio88

    vio88 Fish Fanatic

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    Ok good to know what hurts snails hurts fish. Wait what about salt, that kills snails but helps fish, or so I heard. A week ago I returned home from a two week vacation, I cleaned my tank and found the planaria but my gravel vaccum couldn't suck them up. So how will cleaning the gravel get rid of them? Ok so if this stuff will hurt my fish what if I put all my fish in a different tank (10 gallon) and then use it in my 20 gallon tank where I saw the planaria. Then all that would be in my 20 gallon tank is some floating plants, 2 java ferns, and some pest snails. That way the tank and gravel would be treated but not the fish. Would that help at all or would I just be contaminating my 10 gallon via the fish?
     
  4. Byron

    Byron Member

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    All freshwater fish are harmed by salt. Use of salt to treat a specific problem, like ich, can help, but that is only temporary. Permanent regular addition of salt to a freshwater aquarium has absolutely no benefit, and does cause problems for the fish. I have an article online that explains this:
    http://wetwebmedia.com/SaltArtHosking.htm

    Planaria usually appear when the substrate is "dirty" with organics, which is just what we can expect here. Keeping the substrate well vacuumed at every water change will help reduce the organics. This is preventative.

    This is OK. I don't like moving fish (this severely stresses them too) but if there are not many and you can, this should work. My only concern is the "after-effects" of this product. Does it remain in the substrate? I don't know. Maybe someone who has direct experience with it can advise us.

    You will not contaminate the 10g from the fish, at least not that I know of. This is not a critter that travels with/in the fish.
     
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  5. vio88

    vio88 Fish Fanatic

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    Huh ok that makes sense about the salt. So then what it says on the side of my box of API is a total lie. It says that this salt provides essential electrolytes that freshwater fish need to improve gill function, reduce stress, facilitate osmoregulation and promote disease recover (I paraphrased it).

    hm... ok keeping tank clean is will prevent planaria from appearing. Then in theory cleaning the tank would also make them die off from lack of food. Excellent point about the product sticking around, I was assuming that if I changed a good amount of water it would be weak enough so as to not harm my fish.

    I have wondered which stressed fish more taking out to clean tank or cleaning tank with them in it. The cories definitely seem more stressed to take out then leave in, I think my guppies are resigned to the fact that occasionally I have to move them.

    I am going to see if I can cancel my order of this product and just trying cleaning the tank thoroughly. Seeing the planaria swimming against the current when vacuuming the gravel had me very creeped out and so I thought I needed chemicals to be rid of them all quickly.
     
  6. vio88

    vio88 Fish Fanatic

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  7. The Lumpfish Guy

    The Lumpfish Guy Fish Crazy

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    It is apparently this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areca_nut
    "...has been described as a "neglected global public health emergency"
    Doesn't sound like a fun nut for people at least. Interesting read.
     
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  8. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    Betel nut has been eaten by people in New Guinea for thousands of years. It causes them to trip out.
    I have no experience using it in aquariums so can't comment further.
     
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  9. Byron

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    Clearly the product is not something to use in a fish tank, end of that story. To your other questions/points.

    Much as I hate to contradict a reputable company like API, some of whose products (but certainly not all) I use and will use no other (their "Tap Water Conditioner" for example is far and away the best such product we have) I will disagree with their claims here. If you read my article I linked previously, and those of other much more knowledgeable biologists like Neale Monks on that same site, it is clear salt is not beneficial to freshwater fish except when it is used to combat a specific issue/problem. And just think for a moment about this claim: fish living in the Amazon do not have salt in the water, and they have been living there for hundreds of thousands of years. It is true that the aquarium environment is obviously somewhat different from nature, but in most cases these "benefits" that certain unnecessary products allegedly may provide can be achieved simply with clean water. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is more beneficial that regular substantial partial water changes.

    Netting a fish out of the tank is absolutely the highest stress for the fish; it evokes the fear/flight response fish have when they encounter a predator, and this is incredibly high stress. Never move fish unless essential. Some species "accept" it better than others, but it is still stressful and that weakens the immune system and can lead to permanent damage. Cories are one group of fish that do not like being moved and never should be without very good reason.

    Weekly partial water changes should be done with the fish in the tank and nothing disturbed. Leave the décor and plants alone. Open areas of substrate can be vacuumed with the water changer, and at least half the tank's water removed during this. The filter should be regularly cleaned/rinsed. But aside from these, there is no reason to be doing some sort of "spring cleaning" where the environment is disrupted. The more water you change, the more stable the chemistry will be, the healthier the fish, and...more success. Do not use additives that are not absolutely essential (water conditioner to dechlorinate for example is essential), and use these no more than what is needed. Excess of even "safe" additives can affect the fish's physiology.
     
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  10. vio88

    vio88 Fish Fanatic

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    ok thanks guys!

    As to the thing of salt I originally thought but these are freshwater fish why put salt in they aren't from the ocean. Good to know that moving fish out of tank is basically life and death stressful. Then I have to wonder something though, what of when you buy a fish from the pet store, they net it then, and if I am to quarantine it to be sure its not sick before adding to main tank I would have to net it again then. Seems like a lot of stress. Same thing if you sell fish.

    I use Seachem prime and stability. Prime is a conditioner and stability is "good bacteria" that you add when changing water or setting up a tank. I probably put more conditioner in than needed since the water I put in isn't dechlorinated before hand. How fast does chlorine harm fish? Should I just use how much conditioner it says and trust it to detox the chlorine fast enough?
     
  11. Colin_T

    Colin_T Member

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    Catching a fish out of a tank and putting it in a bucket of water, then bagging it up and moving it to your house, and acclimatising it to your tank, does stress the fish.

    Good shops will hold new fish for a few days before they sell them. This gives the fish a chance to recover from the stress associated with being caught at the wholesalers, bagged up and sent to the shops.

    Good shops will also be able to catch a fish quickly and that reduces the stress quite considerably. Fish being chased around an aquarium is more stressful than lifting a fish out of water for a few seconds. In fact fish being chased around an aquarium can die just from that stress. They don't even have to be lifted out of water. If a shop worker is careless, then fish can die in bags on the way home.

    If the fish have a few days or more (a week is preferable) to recover between being caught, and they are caught quickly and with a minimum of stress, they can generally cope with going from the shop to your house. If you put them in a quarantine tank for 2-4 weeks, this gives them time to recover from the stress of being taken from the shop to your house.

    The following link has information about what happens to fish when they go from the fish farm to the shop.
    https://www.fishforums.net/threads/fish-importing-from-the-farm-to-the-home.451553/#post-3813924

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    Chlorine/ chloramine harm fish as soon as it comes in contact with them. It usually burns the gill filaments and the fish can't take in oxygen and suffocate. Fish that have been exposed to chlorine/ chloramine will usually start gasping at the surface and die within a few minutes to a few hours after the initial exposure.

    The best way to prevent chlorine/ chloramine poisoning of fish is to make the new water up before adding it to the tank. You get a couple of big buckets and fill them with tap water. Add dechlorinator to the buckets of water and aerate them for at least 5 minutes (preferably 30 minutes) before adding that water to the tank.

    Aerating the water and dechlorinator allows the dechlorinator to come in contact with all the chlorine/ chloramine and neutralise it.

    When water is under pressure, like in water pipes, the dissolved gasses can be forced out of the water. Aerating it for 30 minutes allows the gasses to get back into the water in the correct amounts so the fish aren't exposed to water with low oxygen levels.
     
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  12. Byron

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    Colin covered the netting/stress issue very well. I will just add that if you have the space for a permanent small tank like a 10g, it helps to have this running as your quarantine for new fish. I've done this for years, and I am convinced it eases the stress of fish moving from store to my tanks. As it is permanently running, it is obviously cycled. It is planted (I use culls and daughter plants from the main tanks, and I have a thick cover of floating plants), shallow sand substrate, sponge filter, heater. The fish from the store are acclimated and then netted into this tank (never dump store tank water in your tanks). So the fish are going to a new environment which is without doubt far superior to anything they had in the store, and they will settle in faster because it is an established aquarium, not a bare tank. As I say, this is ideal if you have the space for a permanently running 10 gallon tank. This is less stressful, which means less chance of the fish not fighting off this or that (such as ich) on their own.

    On the Prime and Stability...there is no need to be using Stability except in a new tank. The less additives the better, always, so avoid something like this which is not going to have any benefit (unless you somehow have no bacteria). However, if your quarantine tank cannot be permanent and has to be set up each time, Stability will help. But not regularly in an established aquarium. There may be no real detriment, it is just not needed and thus best avoided, though I have heard of these additives causing odd things like ammonia increases. Best avoided.

    As for Prime, I will not use this and I only recommend it for new tanks. It messes with too much chemistry for my liking, and Seachem for whatever reason won't tell you how it does some of this, and that bothers me even more. In an established tank there is no need for a conditioner that deals with ammonia, nitrite and nitrate--it is just one more set of chemicals getting inside the fish for no reason--unless of course one of these substances is present in the source (tap) water, that is a very different situation.

    API's Tap Water Conditioner is the most concentrated on the market...so you use less which is always a good thing. And it only deals with chlorine/chloramine and heavy metals. Unless you have issues with ammonia, nitrite, nitrate in the tap water, this is all you need. Never use more than what is needed for the volume of fresh water. Now a drop or two extra won't matter, but these products usually say you can double the dose and it is safe. It is not safe. There is no need to be dumping all that chemical stuff in the water, and it most assuredly will not benefit. It is like taking medicines...more of the medicine is not going to help, and may often harm you. When we dump this stuff in the water the poor fish have no where to escape it, and at the very least this is additional stress.
     
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  13. vio88

    vio88 Fish Fanatic

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    So I don't loose bacteria when I change the water in my tank? That makes sense about water conditioners. I figured all water conditioners were pretty much the same but that makes sense use less unless you need it.
     
  14. Byron

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    Correct. Bacteria (the many good species we want) live on surfaces covered by water. They are sticky and adhere quite strongly to the surface. The surface is called a biofilm.

    The more water you change and the more often, the better and healthier the fish and the biological system. Having said that, there is usually no need to go overboard, so a once weekly partial water change of 50-70% of the tank volume is advisable.
     
  15. vio88

    vio88 Fish Fanatic

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    Ok what about if all my filter media is replaced one a month then do I lose a significant amount of good bacteria? (the filter on my 10 gallon tank uses media that is the foam, carbon and thing to house bacteria all in one piece) Also I may change more water than I need to. How bad is changing "too much water"?
    I usually take 2 or 3 19L buckets worth out of both of my tanks weekly (the tricky part in calculating percentage changed is that the buckets of water taken out aren't quite full, about 3 inches from the top and I take out one bucket then add refill the take then take another bucket out etc.). The reason I take so much water out is that there seems to be a lot of poop and or uneaten food in the gravel.
     

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