What A Nice Man...

Hi Willowstwin

Welcome to our forums. Sorry if it appears some members are giving you (or that LFS chap) a hard time. I'm sure it's only because they are passionate about fishkeeping with the best interests of the fish at heart.

The chap who has been advising you at the fish store sounds to be a fairly helpful person IMO. Ok, so he's not outwardly advocating the total fishless cycling process...but, to be honest, I have yet to come across ANY aquatic centre/fish store/pet store that tells you to go away and fishless cycle for umpteen weeks...they just don't do it - they need to make a living, they need to sell the fish in their stores pronto because they know the fish are not always kept in ideal situations in-house, so the sooner they are sold and settled into a nice new home with much more room and lovely decor/plants, the better for the fish. Plus it gives the store owners and staff a weekly income, of course LOL - that's what it is, after all, a business!

So, bearing that in mind, I think you're quite lucky to find someone like you have, who is obviously caught between the devil and the deep blue sea (he probably does know that ammonia cycling is the better way BUT he can't exactly say that otherwise you'll go away for weeks/months and maybe when the time comes to buy fish, there's no guarantee you'll buy from him, so he's lost sales). On the other hand, he may be so experienced and successful with fish-in cycling that he doesn't see the need to change his method.

Besides, we all know there are ways of cycling a tank without going through the fishless cycling with ammonia - tons of aquarists cycle their tanks successfully (with no fish loss) using mature media to seed their filter, add a couple of small fish - the mature media will cope with any fish waste they produce and in the meantime the bacteria will multiply - and no harm done to the fish. It's not the same as doing a fish-in cycle from scratch, where in that case there is no mature media to break down the toxins whilst the filter bacteria start colonising. Even then, fish-in-cycling can be a success if done diligently with regular water changes and stringent water testing.

Once you have your first matured filter, any further tanks purchased can be seeded and grown in this way - it's how I do mine and will continue to do so. So, if someone else who already has mature media can let you have some to seed your filter with, why not?

We hear of so many newbies who set up their new tanks/new filters leave them running for a week or two (no fish in them, no filter media), test the water and see there is no ammonia/nitrite so they go and buy a bunch of fish...then all hell breaks loose because suddenly the tank water has a high volume of ammonia with a filter that has no bacteria to convert it into nitrite/nitrate...and fish suffer for it. And then they say "but my water tested fine before I added the fish"...

Thankfully, that isn't something you've done LOL!

So, to cap on all of that I would say that if you're definitely not going down the route of a fishless cycle with ammonia, and as you've already seeded your filter with donated media, then ask your LFS chap to test your water with a liquid test kit if possible to make sure there isn't a high level of ammonia present (from the mulm you added) before you buy any fish. He sounds decent enough not to let you put fish in a tank of high ammonia, though.

It might all seem very complicated but once you understand the whole process of the filter and what it does, it's quite simple really. Don't give up and don't be downhearted if others seem to be a bit harsh with their points of view - ultimately you are your own person and can make decisions for yourself based on all the info you have gathered. So long as you are fully dedicated in whatever method of cycling you choose, and do your utmost to prevent any fish from suffering, then that is fine.

As for your friendly LFS, he sounds better than a lot of them out there I've come across and it's great if you can build up a rapport with them as you know you can rely on them to give you a bit of guidance with anything in the future.

I would recommend saving up for a liquid testing kit, though. Especially as your LFS isn't just round the corner LOL - it will come in very handy for any emergency situations that may arise where you need to know what your water stats are pronto.

Hope everything goes smoothly. Keep us updated when you get time.

Regards, Athena
 
Raptor - I thought our own guidance mentions that if you go above 5ppm you get the wrong sort? :)

really, never heard that, nor experienced it. and how hard is it to ensure you get 5ppm? never mind how easy it is to remove some.

With the "Add Daily" method, there will be approximately 12 to 15 ppm on the 3rd day so you need a lot of bacteria to process all of that.
taken from linky

best i can make out, from experience and reading is, its a waste of time to have more. defiantly not a reason not to do it.

could you point me to the post?

I maintain we should ask him to stay away, not join.
 
I maintain we should ask him to stay away, not join.


Why? Because his methods are different?

As Athena pointed out (rather excellent post there Athena), shop owners have to make a living, why would you tell someone who is rather naive (not intended in an offensive way, just that you arent that experienced so any advice is good at this point OP!) to go away, add ammonia to a tank when theyve been told that ammonia is bad, for several weeks, only for them to go to a different shop to buy their fish? It is not a good business idea, and it makes no sense.

It does however make sense for the owner to give the OP something that he doesnt need anymore, and tell them to come back in a week to assess the situation, where he might make a sale, be it a test kit, fish food or, dare i say it, FISH! Although from what it looks like i doubt he would.


Yes his opinions are different to yours, but youve proved previously that you think highly of your opinions, and so you should, as you obviously are very experienced and you know what youre talking about, but you should be open to new ideas!

Look at some of the old school fishkeepers. They swear by UGF but advice given in the present is to get that UGF out and get a power filter, some see the good side of that, some see the bad. What I'm trying to say is whilst opinions of what works and what doesnt are valuable, and usually of the norm, sometimes when new techniques (or equipment) coem into paly, they should be considered, and not just disregarded, as you have done with this owner.
 
Athena - I actually found a LFS which recommended Fishless "it's what we do at the begining for our tanks, it's what's done for marine and it seems the best way to us" - Coxwell Aquatics new Abbingdon. Very nice people. I will gloss over the fact that he mentioned "we've got products to help with the cycling" :)
Wo Hoo - I know where my fish are coming from now :)
Miles
 
Athena - I actually found a LFS which recommended Fishless "it's what we do at the begining for our tanks, it's what's done for marine and it seems the best way to us" - Coxwell Aquatics new Abbingdon. Very nice people. I will gloss over the fact that he mentioned "we've got products to help with the cycling" :)
Wo Hoo - I know where my fish are coming from now :)
Miles


LOL, yes Miles - it's possible that their idea of "fishless cycling" isn't exactly what is promoted on here. I've heard lots of people say "yes, I did a fishless cycle...for two weeks blah blah blah" and you know darn well they couldn't have completed it that quickly LOL and it turns out they used some product off the shelf to supposedly cycle their filter (which wasn't actually cycled anyway).

But if you've found an LFS that actually goes down the route of advising the ammonia method and giving support to those potential customers who do it and never sell fish to customers who haven't cycled their tank that way, then wow, well done to them! Few and far between.

Regards, Athena
 
Thanks Athena for the wonderful post.

I wasn't saying I was DEFINITELY going with a fish-in cycle, and the man didn't (wouldn't infact) sell me any fish until he's tested my water.

I tested my water with the dip sticks this morning, and (bearing in mind I have a wedge of mature filter medium in my filter) here were the results I got (rough ones due to the kit not being very accurate):
Ammonia : 0
Nitrites : 2 (might be 4, colours were close)
Nitrates : 40

My water temp is sitting at 29 degrees C (cant seem to get it to 30)

Does this sound ok? It was 20 hours after adding the "poop". I'll drop a few drops of ammonia in when I get in from work, leave it a few minutes (to mix) and test. But this kit isn't accurate, so I'll have to be very careful.

I don't want the fish to suffer either, that's my main concern. This man didn't either, hence why he wouldn't let me take any fish (not that I asked, but he openly said I wasn't taking any until he'd checked my water).

As for my little goldfish, please don't tell me he wasn't happy... I was a kid, I loved that fish and he was the most beautiful shiney orange colour... I thought he was happy, maybe he wasn't, but for the information available to a 9 yr old girl, I thought I did quite well...
 
Indeed - that's exactly what I think I've found; he even know the concentration of the household ammonia which is available :)

Willow - if you look in the beginner sticky at the top of the forum you'll find a very easy calculator which will tell you how much ammonia to add to get to 4 or 5ppm (my preference is 4) - this will mean that you're better able to reference your result when you do the test.
You're aiming to see no ammonia or nitrite after 12 hours :)
 
Like i said the bit about the goldfish was not meant to offened you did what all 9year olds did inc me. You are learning that this hobby is alot more complex then 1st thought and with some reading and helpfull members you will be fine :good:

Eco miles here use the calc at the top to measure the ammonia if you do it, you cant go wrong then best of luck.
leave the tank a good 30min before testing to allow the mix
 
ok, 7 oclock add ammonia, 7:30 test water.... 7 - 7:30 the next morning, test water...

Thanks, I know you didn't mean to offend, but I loved that little fish, and I hate to think it wasn't happy :( He was beautiful aand shiney though, his scales reflected the light lovely and he was a gorgeous orange. I left him with an aunt while we went on holiday, and he'd died, so I reckon she must have done something :(

how many days do I have to get 0 0 readings before I know my tank is cycled?
 
:good: I did a fishless cyclce in jan using that method took 21 days inc the 7days 0,0 ones so not that long with luck
 
I maintain we should ask him to stay away, not join.


Why? Because his methods are different?

As Athena pointed out (rather excellent post there Athena), shop owners have to make a living, why would you tell someone who is rather naive (not intended in an offensive way, just that you arent that experienced so any advice is good at this point OP!) to go away, add ammonia to a tank when theyve been told that ammonia is bad, for several weeks, only for them to go to a different shop to buy their fish? It is not a good business idea, and it makes no sense.

It does however make sense for the owner to give the OP something that he doesnt need anymore, and tell them to come back in a week to assess the situation, where he might make a sale, be it a test kit, fish food or, dare i say it, FISH! Although from what it looks like i doubt he would.


Yes his opinions are different to yours, but youve proved previously that you think highly of your opinions, and so you should, as you obviously are very experienced and you know what youre talking about, but you should be open to new ideas!

Look at some of the old school fishkeepers. They swear by UGF but advice given in the present is to get that UGF out and get a power filter, some see the good side of that, some see the bad. What I'm trying to say is whilst opinions of what works and what doesnt are valuable, and usually of the norm, sometimes when new techniques (or equipment) coem into paly, they should be considered, and not just disregarded, as you have done with this owner.

i do understand your comments. but why ask somebody to join, when their views, supported by miss-information, fly in the face of "forum thoughts". yes there is no problem with the fish in cycle method. that's an option we all have. however, may members might assuma comments from a LFS owner/ manager, had some validity in fact. in this case that would not be true.
as for fish in cycle, being a NEW IDEA????????????????? therefore i see no need for RETROGRADE steps
truth is, many, people come here. because the information, from the LFS, is either unreliable, or plain wrong. they come to learn too. as for us changing his mind or helping him LEARN (seeing the light, lol) what chance do you think there is of that? FAT and NONE at all.
sometimes when new techniques (or equipment) coem into paly, they should be considered, and not just disregarded,
I have no problem with "new Ideas" they just need to have some basis in fact, FIRST. unlike "always on" UV Sterilisers, Bottled Cycle products. Aquarium salt, as a constant tonic, (ok so that one is old, but it keeps coming up) and one shot PH change products. even worse, Clams sold for community tanks. all these are new (ish) ideas , read chances to sell something, but none do what is claimed. with the exception of salt (as a medication) none actually do anything. except perhaps use up electric and consume time, that could be better spent. though i accept the Clams will do something, in your community tank, they will starve and die.

and not just disregarded, as you have done with this owne
I dissregard his comments because they are un-true, in practice. as well as PFK being a more reliable source of information on new techniques and equipment, than those who stand to profit from them, directly.

if we are to consider inviting somebody. the must add to our knowledge, or have the opportunity to learn, themselves, surely? from the comments from the OP, he could not fulfil the first. and i have already covered the second bit.
 

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