Vecchioni's Fishless Nitrogen Cycle

[tna2327]

Hey guys, new here and looking to get this tank up and running!

I set up a 10 gallon tank with everything needed, filter, heater, lid etc...i used CLEAR ammonia to get the ammonia level up to 4.0 and for the last 4 days its went down to in between 3.0 and 4.0...as far as the colors go on the liquid ammonia test...however each day i've tested for nitrites I get nothing. Any hints or am I just being impatient?

Thanks!!

-Tim

Here is my diary that I started.

24 July 12:00 20 drops Am added
24 July 18:00 .5 Am / 60 drops added
24 July 22:00 1.0-2.0 Am / 100 drops added / pH 7.2
25 July 10:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / pH 7.2
25 July 20:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / pH 7.2 20 drops of pH down added
26 July 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / pH 7.2 20 drops of pH down added
27 July 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
28 July 15:30 3.0-4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
29 July 15:30 3.0-4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
30 July 15:30 3.0-4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni

 

[FishyWishie]

Erm if your PH is 7.2 why are you trying to bring it down during a fishless cycle ? The higher (within reason) the PH is the better during this phase. If your PH drops to far your cycle will stall.

Im also a little confused as to exactly what 100 drops added is ? If its ammonia have you looked at the calculator on this forum to see how much to add ? 100 drops doesn't sound to precise a measurement. You would be far better with either a medice pipette or measuring spoon set.

 

[OldMan47]

Welcome to the forum TNA2327.
You are indeed being impatient. It often takes over 2 weeks before we see the first movement of any ammonia. After that move happens, the ammonia part of the cycle speeds right up but the nitrite spike can last just as long or sometimes even longer.

 

[tna2327]

Erm if your PH is 7.2 why are you trying to bring it down during a fishless cycle ? The higher (within reason) the PH is the better during this phase. If your PH drops to far your cycle will stall.

Im also a little confused as to exactly what 100 drops added is ? If its ammonia have you looked at the calculator on this forum to see how much to add ? 100 drops doesn't sound to precise a measurement. You would be far better with either a medice pipette or measuring spoon set.

the drops should not be looked at because the method I used wasn't too accurate however it was enough to get it to 4.0 ppm. I did not know that about the pH level and haven't used it the last couple days.

Welcome to the forum TNA2327.
You are indeed being impatient. It often takes over 2 weeks before we see the first movement of any ammonia. After that move happens, the ammonia part of the cycle speeds right up but the nitrite spike can last just as long or sometimes even longer.

I've done some research and have seen people with readings of nitrite in the 3rd and 4th days doing the fishless cycle...thats why i'm being curious

 

[OldMan47]

People with nitrite readings in just a few days are not doing a traditional fishless cycle, they are doing a clone. I clone my filters all the time and am usually done in less than a week. That is not typical of a fishless cycle but is fairly common for a good clone. It is the reason we encourage people to sign up to become media donors and we keep a donor list at the top of this section of the forum. I carry a link to the post in my signature area.

 

[tna2327]

People with nitrite readings in just a few days are not doing a traditional fishless cycle, they are doing a clone. I clone my filters all the time and am usually done in less than a week. That is not typical of a fishless cycle but is fairly common for a good clone. It is the reason we encourage people to sign up to become media donors and we keep a donor list at the top of this section of the forum. I carry a link to the post in my signature area.

I actually have to head to bed so I don't have time to research this "clone" fishless cycle. However the diary which I will link you too is what I was going off of. He made it seem as if everything was fresh just like my tank which is why i assumed that things were a bit behind schedule.

Now that I know things aren't wrong and I was just being impatient...

Do I just allow the ammonia to sit in the tank until it starts to lower and turn into nitrites then follow on with the cycle process of adding more?

Thanks for all the help and future help

Tim

http/www.oscarfishlover.com/helpful-articles/cycling-an-aquarium/cycle-diary

 

[OldMan47]

That is exactly what you do. It can easily take 2 weeks before you see much of anything change in a raw cycle. Cloning is where you use some mature media to give you a starter colony of the right bacteria. Then all you need to do is grow that colony to a big enough size for your tank and filter combination. Since the bacteria can double about once a day, that can go very quickly. If you think about it let's say you start out with only 2% of what you need in your clone. Day 1 it is 4%, day 2 it is 8%, day 3 it is 16%, day 4 it is 32%day 5 it is 64% and day 6 it is done. Clones can be very quick and effective when done right.

Fishywishie's question is an excellent one too. Please leave the acid on the shelf or better yet wash it down the sink with lots of water for dilution. I almost said toss it but that means hazardous waste in the trash can which is a bad move at any time. Almost any pH will work for almost any fish as long as the mineral content of your water is right for your fish. The fish that have a reputation for liking a low pH are the ones that benefit from water low in minerals. Adding acids to the water does just the opposite of what you would really want for them. It raises the mineral content. If you intend to keep "soft water" fish, you will need to get the right mineral content using a mix of RO or rain water to dilute the tap water to the right concentration. If you don't know where you are starting with mineral content, there is no way to predict how much it will take to get there.

 

[tna2327]

That is exactly what you do. It can easily take 2 weeks before you see much of anything change in a raw cycle. Cloning is where you use some mature media to give you a starter colony of the right bacteria. Then all you need to do is grow that colony to a big enough size for your tank and filter combination. Since the bacteria can double about once a day, that can go very quickly. If you think about it let's say you start out with only 2% of what you need in your clone. Day 1 it is 4%, day 2 it is 8%, day 3 it is 16%, day 4 it is 32%day 5 it is 64% and day 6 it is done. Clones can be very quick and effective when done right.

Fishywishie's question is an excellent one too. Please leave the acid on the shelf or better yet wash it down the sink with lots of water for dilution. I almost said toss it but that means hazardous waste in the trash can which is a bad move at any time. Almost any pH will work for almost any fish as long as the mineral content of your water is right for your fish. The fish that have a reputation for liking a low pH are the ones that benefit from water low in minerals. Adding acids to the water does just the opposite of what you would really want for them. It raises the mineral content. If you intend to keep "soft water" fish, you will need to get the right mineral content using a mix of RO or rain water to dilute the tap water to the right concentration. If you don't know where you are starting with mineral content, there is no way to predict how much it will take to get there.

Awesome, thanks for the great advice and I will be putting it to use Monday morning. I found a donor of a piece of decor as well as some water from his well established tank. Hopefully this will help speed things up and get things running. Now my question to you guys is when I get this from him, should I just start the cycle all over or just throw it in the tank and let it do its thing?

Thanks a lot!

 

[OldMan47]

The water won't help but a piece of filter media would help immensely. The next best thing to filter media would be to have your donor squeeze out a used filter in some tank water and use that water to spike the new filter. Although we seldom see much beneficial bacteria in used aquarium water, you do release some into the cleaning bucket every time you clean a filter. That particular water is rich in the right bacteria.

 

[tna2327]

The water won't help but a piece of filter media would help immensely. The next best thing to filter media would be to have your donor squeeze out a used filter in some tank water and use that water to spike the new filter. Although we seldom see much beneficial bacteria in used aquarium water, you do release some into the cleaning bucket every time you clean a filter. That particular water is rich in the right bacteria.

Well I added the piece of decor in the tank almost 2 days ago now and im still not getting any help!

 

[waterdrop]

Hi there and welcome to the forum. Things like decor added from a mature tank can't hurt usually but they are also unlikely to help much as compared to materials that were actually inside the filter of the mature tank. If they (mature media usually) are transferred in to the new, immature filter then they will be re-exposed to the rich ammonia, oxygen and water movement that makes the filter the place where significant bacterial colonies are developed.

Just kick back and be patient. oldman47 is one of our best teachers and observers. He's observed dozens of fishless cycle progress reports per month in recent years, which develops a good feel for the statistics of what usually happens to people.

Its good that you are enthusiastic about your new tank and watching things each day, but my take would be that you've got your time scale dialed up a little too much. As OM47 says, the growth of these two particular bacterial species in a normal fishless cycle is better thought of in weeks and months, not days and weeks (that way you can be pleasantly surprised if things go faster!) Its not so much about the little optimizations that we do as humans, its more about the actual growth rate of these bacteria (kind of like the way humans take about 9 months!)

~~waterdrop~~

 

[tna2327]

Hi there and welcome to the forum. Things like decor added from a mature tank can't hurt usually but they are also unlikely to help much as compared to materials that were actually inside the filter of the mature tank. If they (mature media usually) are transferred in to the new, immature filter then they will be re-exposed to the rich ammonia, oxygen and water movement that makes the filter the place where significant bacterial colonies are developed.

Just kick back and be patient. oldman47 is one of our best teachers and observers. He's observed dozens of fishless cycle progress reports per month in recent years, which develops a good feel for the statistics of what usually happens to people.

Its good that you are enthusiastic about your new tank and watching things each day, but my take would be that you've got your time scale dialed up a little too much. As OM47 says, the growth of these two particular bacterial species in a normal fishless cycle is better thought of in weeks and months, not days and weeks (that way you can be pleasantly surprised if things go faster!) Its not so much about the little optimizations that we do as humans, its more about the actual growth rate of these bacteria (kind of like the way humans take about 9 months!)

~~waterdrop~~

Awesome info, thanks a lot for it. My question is...to transfer media from a filter...how do you do that? Because the donor I have uses a charcoal filter I am pretty sure they are called as well as I do however his is much bigger. Are you basically somehow collecting bacteria from his filter and putting it into mine? Also when you put it in the filter I would suppose you just throw it behind the filter in order for it to get into mine...just trying to clear this up as well as figure out how to do all this for now and in the future!

 

[waterdrop]

The two species of freshwater autotrophs we want to grow in our filters are extremely common in freshwater all over the earth. They grow on any and all surfaces, given the right conditions. The reason they grow in our filters though is because the pump continuously moves water that has fresh oxygen and ammonia (their food, so to speak) past them and we supply "media," which is stuff that has lots of surface area that they particularly like to grow on. Any media, sponge, ceramic gravel, carbon, whatever, will have lots of our autotrophic bacteria on it if its been maturing in the tank for months or years (a so-called batch of "mature media.")

Filters and media come in all types and designs. Its often necessary for a hobbyist to be quite creative, often destructive, with scissors and what not to alter the media when its transferred from the original mature filter to the new filter. Loose media, like gravel or carbon is perhaps the easiest, as it can usulally fit most new filters unless they are not built with trays or places for loose media. The ideal location for the pieces of mature media are just prior to the main "biomedia" (sponge, for instance) in the water path of the new filter. (This is why its always good for beginners to determine the water path within their new fitlers and note it in their aquarium notebook near the beginning!)

Once you begin learning about filters, its slowly becomes easier to see why so many serious hobbyists really like those large external cannister filters that have two, three, even four big trays that can take all types of media! An alternative to those are the Aquaclear line of external HOB filters that have a rather simple box construction and can freely take media. I'm not saying these are essential, just that it becomes more apparent to you than it might have been when you were just beginning.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[tna2327]

The two species of freshwater autotrophs we want to grow in our filters are extremely common in freshwater all over the earth. They grow on any and all surfaces, given the right conditions. The reason they grow in our filters though is because the pump continuously moves water that has fresh oxygen and ammonia (their food, so to speak) past them and we supply "media," which is stuff that has lots of surface area that they particularly like to grow on. Any media, sponge, ceramic gravel, carbon, whatever, will have lots of our autotrophic bacteria on it if its been maturing in the tank for months or years (a so-called batch of "mature media.")

Filters and media come in all types and designs. Its often necessary for a hobbyist to be quite creative, often destructive, with scissors and what not to alter the media when its transferred from the original mature filter to the new filter. Loose media, like gravel or carbon is perhaps the easiest, as it can usulally fit most new filters unless they are not built with trays or places for loose media. The ideal location for the pieces of mature media are just prior to the main "biomedia" (sponge, for instance) in the water path of the new filter. (This is why its always good for beginners to determine the water path within their new fitlers and note it in their aquarium notebook near the beginning!)

Once you begin learning about filters, its slowly becomes easier to see why so many serious hobbyists really like those large external cannister filters that have two, three, even four big trays that can take all types of media! An alternative to those are the Aquaclear line of external HOB filters that have a rather simple box construction and can freely take media. I'm not saying these are essential, just that it becomes more apparent to you than it might have been when you were just beginning.

~~waterdrop~~

Amazing response, thank you!

 

[OldMan47]

You have to respect WD, he has helped hundreds of new fish keepers here get off to a good start. Thanks again WD.