Vecchioni's Fishless Nitrogen Cycle

[tna2327]

You have to respect WD, he has helped hundreds of new fish keepers here get off to a good start. Thanks again WD.

I respect both of your help and appreciate it very much!

 

[tna2327]

So it's been 3 weeks now and still no conversion to nitrite! Should I add more ammonia? I guess the decor from the other tank didnt help any. I want fish in my tank already!

 

[waterdrop]

Typically, for us to follow along, the beginner records what we call a Fishless Cycling Diary (do you have one of these in a different thread?) We watch the daily (or every 2nd or 3rd day or such) values that you've recorded for Ammonia, Nitrite(NO2), pH and Nitrate(NO3.)

Usually people also record the temperature and other observations along with those above. If you search on "fishless cycle" you should find hundreds of beginner threads that sport these diaries within the first few posts. You may find one that serves as a good example or template. There was a member "martinking" that I remember even had a first post template for people.

In your particular case it would be interesting to see your pH pattern. If the pH drops as low as 6.2 or lower, the action of the bacteria can stop and the cycling process won't move forward. The bacteria grow fastest when the pH is way up around 8.0 to 8.4 and gradually exhibit slower growth as you move toward that crash point of 6.2 and below. Sometimes a low but adequate pH is the reason for the initial ammonia processing taking as long as 3 weeks.

We do indeed see cases where full ammonia processing (from 5ppm down to zero ppm) and the beginning of nitrite(NO2) readings will take a full 3 weeks or longer but its rare. If your ammonia has gone down to zero ppm then you need to re-dose it back to 4 to 5ppm as it outlines in the Fishless Cycling article by RDD. Let us know more details.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[tna2327]

Thank's for that last response and I actually got some conversion to nitrite...but now it seems like I can't get it again. It was for days converting to nitrite and then to nitrate and I thought all was well but then one day the Ni was at 0!! I don't know why, I didn't change anything...gonna post my diary and you tell me what you think. Instead of drops I have been using the amount I put in the dropper tube to make things a bit easier for myself...not crazy accurate down tot he drop but I don't believe that has anything to do with the problem!


27 July 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
28 July 15:30 3.0-4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
29 July 15:30 3.0-4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
30 July 15:30 3.0-4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
31 July 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
01 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
02 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
03 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
04 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
05 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
06 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
07 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
08 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
09 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
10 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
11 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
12 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
13 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
14 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
15 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
16 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / .25 Ni
17 Aug 15:30 3.0 Am / .50 Ni / 5.0 Na / ½ tube Am Added
18 Aug 15:30 3.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na / ½ tube Am Added
19 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na
20 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 0.0 Na
21 Aug 15:30 2.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na
22 Aug 15:30 .75 Am / 1.5 Ni / 5.0 Na / ½ tube Am Added
23 Aug 15:30 .50 Am / 1.0 Ni / 80 Na / ½ tube Am Added
24 Aug 15:30 .50 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na / 1 tube Am Added
25 Aug 15:30 1.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na / 1 tube Am Added
26 Aug 15:30 1.0 Am / 2.0 Ni / 5.0 Na / 1 ½ tube Am Added
27 Aug 15:30 3.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 7.5 Na
29 Aug 11:50 1.5 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na / 1 tube Am Added
30 Aug 17:45 2.0 Am / 2.0 Ni / 5.0 Na
31 Aug 17:30 1.5 Am / 2.0 Ni / 80 Na / 2 ¼ tube Am Added
01 Sep 17:30 4.0 Am / 2.0 Ni / 80 Na
02 Sep 17:30 1.5 Am / 0.0 Ni / 80 Na / 2 tube Am Added
03 Sep 17:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / 80 Na
04 Sep 17:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / 80 Na
05 Sep 21:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / 80 Na

So as you can see the Na is staying at 80 and the Am doesn't seem to be converting to Ni anymore. Any ideas? I did have the heat up in the tank a little bit and turned it down but i don't think over the course of 3-4 days that would make the process stop would it? Other then that I have not changed anything else.

 

[frogmarch1987]

have you checked your pH? If it has dropped too low, as mentioned previously, it will stall the cycle.

 

[tna2327]

have you checked your pH? If it has dropped too low, as mentioned previously, it will stall the cycle.

holy crap pH level is at 6.0 just checked it...should i go buy some pH UP or whatever it is and use it? What to do now that it's too low?

 

[waterdrop]

No, nothing serious! It just means you need a "kickstart" water change to grab some fresh calcium and other minerals from tap water! Get yourself a gravel-cleaning siphon if you don't already have one and gravel clean your way all the way down to the substrate (assuming its gravel and not sand) and then refill your tank with water that's been conditioned to remove chlorine/chloramine and that you've roughly temperature matched to the old water (just 'cause the bacteria will get going again faster if they feel their nice 29C/84F temperature sooner) and don't forget to re-dose with ammonia!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[tna2327]

No, nothing serious! It just means you need a "kickstart" water change to grab some fresh calcium and other minerals from tap water! Get yourself a gravel-cleaning siphon if you don't already have one and gravel clean your way all the way down to the substrate (assuming its gravel and not sand) and then refill your tank with water that's been conditioned to remove chlorine/chloramine and that you've roughly temperature matched to the old water (just 'cause the bacteria will get going again faster if they feel their nice 29C/84F temperature sooner) and don't forget to re-dose with ammonia!

~~waterdrop~~

Totally forgot to check on here after I posted my problem but I didn't quite take this approach even though it sounds like it would of been just as efficient. What I did was grab a bottle of pH UP and started adding it like crazy! It started to slowly go up after adding it the first night and the next morning and I had a small reading of Ni! I then checked the Am at the same time and noticed it dropped and got very excited! Well I then added more pH UP as it was still below 7.0 and I knew from your previous post I wanted it higher! Well after a couple of days of adding the pH UP and more Am obviously to keep up...it looks like my tank is ALMOST finished the cycle...over the last 24 hours it pretty much cycled the full amount of Am that I put in the tank last night! This is my first fishless cycle and I didn't quite follow the guideline however it all looks like its coming out like its suppose to and I just wanted to say thanks for all the help! Here is my diary up to 12 minutes ago. Also a quick question. How long after adding Am can you get a true reading of how much you added. I want to make sure the "tube amounts" that I am adding is somewhere equivalent to 4.0?


27 July 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
28 July 15:30 3.0-4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
29 July 15:30 3.0-4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
30 July 15:30 3.0-4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
31 July 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
01 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
02 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
03 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
04 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
05 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
06 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
07 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
08 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
09 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
10 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
11 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
12 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
13 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
14 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
15 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni
16 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / .25 Ni
17 Aug 15:30 3.0 Am / .50 Ni / 5.0 Na / ½ tube Am Added
18 Aug 15:30 3.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na / ½ tube Am Added
19 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na
20 Aug 15:30 4.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 0.0 Na
21 Aug 15:30 2.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na
22 Aug 15:30 .75 Am / 1.5 Ni / 5.0 Na / ½ tube Am Added
23 Aug 15:30 .50 Am / 1.0 Ni / 80 Na / ½ tube Am Added
24 Aug 15:30 .50 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na / 1 tube Am Added
25 Aug 15:30 1.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na / 1 tube Am Added
26 Aug 15:30 1.0 Am / 2.0 Ni / 5.0 Na / 1 ½ tube Am Added
27 Aug 15:30 3.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 7.5 Na
29 Aug 11:50 1.5 Am / 1.0 Ni / 5.0 Na / 1 tube Am Added
30 Aug 17:45 2.0 Am / 2.0 Ni / 5.0 Na
31 Aug 17:30 1.5 Am / 2.0 Ni / 80 Na / 2 ¼ tube Am Added
01 Sep 17:30 4.0 Am / 2.0 Ni / 80 Na
02 Sep 17:30 1.5 Am / 0.0 Ni / 80 Na / 2 tube Am Added
03 Sep 17:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / 80 Na
04 Sep 17:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / 80 Na
05 Sep 21:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / 80 Na / pH 6.0 / Added pH UP
06 Sep 17:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / 80 Na / pH 6.8 / Added pH UP
07 Sep 17:30 1.0 Am / 0.5 Ni / 80 Na / pH 7.2 / 2 tube Am Added/ Added pH UP
08 Sep 15:30 0.5 Am / 2.0 Ni / 80 Na / ph 7.2 / 3 tube Am Added / Added pH UP
09 Sep 18:30 0.0 Am / .25 Ni / 80 Na / pH 7.6 / 3 tube Am Added

actually checking the Am levels now a little more then a hour later however I have another question. If there is a link where this has already been posted i'd appreciate it, but just curious to what you do when the tank is done it's cycle, what you do to add your first fish. Also how many and all that jazz!?

Just finished checking the Am after the 5 minute wait and it was only at 1.0 ppm. I added 6 more "tubes" and will test it again in a hour to see where its at. Hopefully this will help speed up the process having more Am to feed off of!?

Ok just checked the Am level and its now at 4.0 ppm. Does this mean that the tank isnt close to being done since I wasn't getting it up to 4.0? Just curious...thanks!

 

[waterdrop]

Hi tna2327,

Yes, your fishless cycle log seems to me to be showing a pattern associated with under-dosing. You may have been actually only dosing at 1 or 2ppm and as a result have only shown some mild rises in nitrite, rather than the typical "nitrite spike" where the nitrite stays off the chart for a long period.

The good news is that you've been putting in the hardest ingredient... Time! And even though you've probably lost a good number of days when you were "stalled" because of the pH crash, you've recovered from that and the two colonies of bacteria are alive and well, even if not large enough yet.

Speaking of that pH crash, one of the basics we try to teach here in the beginners section is not to use other chemicals in your tank (other than "conditioner," that is.) We usually avoid the use of pH-UP or Down products in our tanks. We worry not whether something like pH-UP can do the job (it does it just fine and you see that your pH went up and the bacteria liked it) but whether the other left-over atoms are things we want in the tank. For instance, simple kitchen baking soda, sodium bicarbonate, leaves behind some sodium, which ends up combining into things like simple salt or other things that we know are harmless.

[Aside: It actually brings up an interesting question of whether we know what pH-UP in particular is usually made of - perhaps OM47 or Neale or Tolak or someone can help us out with that. My take on it has been that I know the final big water change(s) is going to take out enough of the sodium byproducts and that any left are harmless, that I trust that baking soda is ok, whereas I'm suspicious of pH-UP in that regard. Perhaps for a fishless cycle (since most of it is gone before ever getting fish) that fear is unfounded, and really the concern is just about using the up/down chemicals with fish present.]

Regardless! You've done what you've done and you are where you are now, right? So for you, its clear to me that you should now proceed probably with the higher dosing you've discovered. Wait at least about a half hour I think for full mixing of the ammonia dose before you take your test sample to find out what ppm you achieved.

Remember, you only dose once per 24 hours, always at the same time of day. Once both the ammonia -and- nitrite are getting down to zero ppm within 24 hours, you begin to do an extra set of ammonia and nitrite tests at the 12 hour mark. The goal is to get both ammonia and nitrite clearing to zero within 12 hours so you can start your "qualifying week." Which just means you watch it do that clearing for another week to make sure its not fooling you.

The "big water change" at the end is no big deal. If you think about it, your filter will now be creating the right type of water for your fish within 12 hours of dosing, so the big water change is just extra insurance and clearing of other substances in addition to ammonia. You gravel clean the water out of the tank down to the gravel surface and then refill with conditioner treated and temperature matched water.

The art of creating a "stocking plan" (from which your initial stocking is derived) is something that can be either easy or can take a long time, depending on your desires and what the members think will "work" or "needs to be shot down." It must start with you listing fish you think you want. As a beginner, you are advised to follow the "inch guideline" which is written up in some of the Beginners Resource Center articles I believe and of course the members will help with it here in your thread. You still probably have some weeks to go on your fishless cycle, so during that time you'll want to work hard on your stocking plan.

~~waterdrop~~
(you're allowed to read it more than once, I yak too much when I have coffee)

 

[tna2327]

Hi tna2327,

Yes, your fishless cycle log seems to me to be showing a pattern associated with under-dosing. You may have been actually only dosing at 1 or 2ppm and as a result have only shown some mild rises in nitrite, rather than the typical "nitrite spike" where the nitrite stays off the chart for a long period.

The good news is that you've been putting in the hardest ingredient... Time! And even though you've probably lost a good number of days when you were "stalled" because of the pH crash, you've recovered from that and the two colonies of bacteria are alive and well, even if not large enough yet.

Speaking of that pH crash, one of the basics we try to teach here in the beginners section is not to use other chemicals in your tank (other than "conditioner," that is.) We usually avoid the use of pH-UP or Down products in our tanks. We worry not whether something like pH-UP can do the job (it does it just fine and you see that your pH went up and the bacteria liked it) but whether the other left-over atoms are things we want in the tank. For instance, simple kitchen baking soda, sodium bicarbonate, leaves behind some sodium, which ends up combining into things like simple salt or other things that we know are harmless.

[Aside: It actually brings up an interesting question of whether we know what pH-UP in particular is usually made of - perhaps OM47 or Neale or Tolak or someone can help us out with that. My take on it has been that I know the final big water change(s) is going to take out enough of the sodium byproducts and that any left are harmless, that I trust that baking soda is ok, whereas I'm suspicious of pH-UP in that regard. Perhaps for a fishless cycle (since most of it is gone before ever getting fish) that fear is unfounded, and really the concern is just about using the up/down chemicals with fish present.]

Regardless! You've done what you've done and you are where you are now, right? So for you, its clear to me that you should now proceed probably with the higher dosing you've discovered. Wait at least about a half hour I think for full mixing of the ammonia dose before you take your test sample to find out what ppm you achieved.

Remember, you only dose once per 24 hours, always at the same time of day. Once both the ammonia -and- nitrite are getting down to zero ppm within 24 hours, you begin to do an extra set of ammonia and nitrite tests at the 12 hour mark. The goal is to get both ammonia and nitrite clearing to zero within 12 hours so you can start your "qualifying week." Which just means you watch it do that clearing for another week to make sure its not fooling you.

The "big water change" at the end is no big deal. If you think about it, your filter will now be creating the right type of water for your fish within 12 hours of dosing, so the big water change is just extra insurance and clearing of other substances in addition to ammonia. You gravel clean the water out of the tank down to the gravel surface and then refill with conditioner treated and temperature matched water.

The art of creating a "stocking plan" (from which your initial stocking is derived) is something that can be either easy or can take a long time, depending on your desires and what the members think will "work" or "needs to be shot down." It must start with you listing fish you think you want. As a beginner, you are advised to follow the "inch guideline" which is written up in some of the Beginners Resource Center articles I believe and of course the members will help with it here in your thread. You still probably have some weeks to go on your fishless cycle, so during that time you'll want to work hard on your stocking plan.

~~waterdrop~~
(you're allowed to read it more than once, I yak too much when I have coffee)

not EXACTLY what I wanted to hear but it is good news! This is all self explanatory and well detailed so I have no questions regarding it!

The fish I am wanted are simply neon tetras and 2 small Plecostomus.

 

[tna2327]

Hey just wanted to say that the tank is coming along well however my pH level keeps dropping on me...any ideas to what could be causing this and how I could fix it? Water change? Tablets? Here is my diary since I found out about the pH change to begin with...I know you said to stay away from the chemicals but they were working and I figured with no fish in the tank it would be ok since the large water change before the actual fish being added would take care of it.


05 Sep 21:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / 80 Na / pH 6.0 / Added pH UP
06 Sep 17:30 4.0 Am / 0.0 Ni / 80 Na / pH 6.8 / Added pH UP
07 Sep 17:30 1.0 Am / 0.5 Ni / 80 Na / pH 7.2 / 2 tube Am Added/ Added pH UP
08 Sep 15:30 0.5 Am / 2.0 Ni / 80 Na / ph 7.2 / 3 tube Am Added / Added pH UP
09 Sep 18:30 0.0 Am / .25 Ni / 80 Na / pH 7.6 / 3 tube Am Added
09 Sep 20:00 1.0 Am / 6 tube Am Added
09 Sep 21:00 4.0 Am
10 Sep 17:00 0.0 Am / 2.0 Ni / 80 Na / pH 7.2 / 9 tube Am Added
11 Sep 13:00 0.0 Am / 2.0 Ni / 80 Na / pH 6.4 / Added pH UP
11 Sep 19:30 0.0 Ni / 7.2 pH / 9 tube Am Added
12 Sep 12:15 0.0 Am / 1.0 Ni / 80 Na / pH 6.8 / 9 tube Am Added
12 Sep 23:50 0.0 Am / 2.0 Ni / 80 Na / pH 6.4 / 9 tube Am Added


Thanks

 

[waterdrop]

OK, I was giving an opening for some comments and discussion about the ingredients of pH-UP but we didn't get any, but that's not of importance to your cycle.

When you get repeated crashing of the pH during the cycle (its due to the nitric acid component of the nitrate) its a sure sign that your water is too low in KH to handle the high rate of cycling (it may handle normal fishkeeping just fine, just not the heavy cycling we do with the fishless cycling process.) The KH (Carbonate Hardness) is the real culprit.

What we recommend in these cases is simple kitchen baking soda (not baking *powder*, which might contain extra ingredients.) The ultimate dose has to be based on your own experimentation but my recommendation for a starting dosage is 2 teaspoons per 50L, with the boundaries on either side of that being 1 to 3 teaspoons after you've seen what you get over days (don't base things on one day only with this kind of stuff.)

By the way, its quite fascinating to see how much more understandable it is if you have a KH kit than a pH kit: the KH decline is much more linear than the pH, which crashes all of a sudden once the KH gets somewhere below 4 and is going down. But of course a KH kit is not necessary really, just an interesting thing.

Remember, your upper goal is 8.0 to 8.4, the optimal growth (for speed that is) for our two species of bacteria. Its a slow curve, so being over or under somewhat is not a big deal.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[tna2327]

OK, I was giving an opening for some comments and discussion about the ingredients of pH-UP but we didn't get any, but that's not of importance to your cycle.

When you get repeated crashing of the pH during the cycle (its due to the nitric acid component of the nitrate) its a sure sign that your water is too low in KH to handle the high rate of cycling (it may handle normal fishkeeping just fine, just not the heavy cycling we do with the fishless cycling process.) The KH (Carbonate Hardness) is the real culprit.

What we recommend in these cases is simple kitchen baking soda (not baking *powder*, which might contain extra ingredients.) The ultimate dose has to be based on your own experimentation but my recommendation for a starting dosage is 2 teaspoons per 50L, with the boundaries on either side of that being 1 to 3 teaspoons after you've seen what you get over days (don't base things on one day only with this kind of stuff.)

By the way, its quite fascinating to see how much more understandable it is if you have a KH kit than a pH kit: the KH decline is much more linear than the pH, which crashes all of a sudden once the KH gets somewhere below 4 and is going down. But of course a KH kit is not necessary really, just an interesting thing.

Remember, your upper goal is 8.0 to 8.4, the optimal growth (for speed that is) for our two species of bacteria. Its a slow curve, so being over or under somewhat is not a big deal.

~~waterdrop~~

Is there a place online to get a KH kit? Because they didn't have one at the LFS. My pH was what i had dreaded when i just checked it home from work at 6.0 or at least thats the lowest reading it could give so it could of been even lower. I will have to try the baking soda and hope this works. I am so close to the 12 hour cycle!

 

[waterdrop]

You can begin the baking soda without waiting for a KH kit. You'll see the changes reflected in your pH. Depending on your country, any major aquarium web supplier should have liquid KH and KH/GH kits. I have ones from TetraTest and from API and they both match on results. The API KH/GH kit seems fine.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[tna2327]

awesome! I am gonna grab a reading tomorrow and if its still doing it, going to add the baking soda. Thanks for the great advice and I will keep you updated!