Tumour 7yo BGK

[Sympledom]

Please help Vincent is a 7yo black ghost knife in a 75 gal two over the back filters (I know canister is more optimal) all alone (I know this is the absolute minimum size but for now let’s just make him better) 28/29cel
Nutrafin waste control as recommended

Gh around 180
Kh around 60
Ph 6.5-7
No2 0
No3 160

I have been dealing with his nitrates, going to try not feeding blood worms daily to help with the waste levels (has been fed frozen bloodworms everyday for 7 years, almost always eats them all) have been doing prime and water changes weekly, I honestly wasn’t doing regular water changes until I moved him into his 75gal in the fall so 4 months ago. But my worry right now is this tumour I don’t know what to do to help him, the skin sloughs off and it just gets bigger. Any advice would be helpful! I know getting his water back to where it should be will help with healing so I am trying to do that, but also trying not to do too much at the same time and stress him out.
He has had two small tumours for several years, it was just recently that the one that is now giant ruptured or something? So I filed his pvc pipes, took out a new ornament that could potentially rip it open... and now I’m not sure what else I can do

 

[CryptFan]

Your nitrates are thru the roof! What is your water change schedule?

 

[Sympledom]

Your nitrates are thru the roof! What is your water change schedule?

I know, the strange this is like I said he has lived in these water Params for years I almost second guess the tests but I’ve used several brands and I know I need to get it under control for his tumor

Water change schedule is 10-15% once a week until they get back to where it’s supposed to be before, I was doing water top ups every couple weeks and water changes every other month which I know is bad, I’m really regretting not being more involved with his water care he is such a good eater there is rarely food waste, but doing more research, blood worms and BGK are just a recipe for high nitrates

 

[Retired Viking]

You really need to increase the % of your water changes. With a 75 gallon tank it may be hard to deal with the volume of water but try and shoot for at least 50%. It would be even better to do a 75% water change a couple of times a week until your get your nitrates down. Some plants like Anacharis may help. Moss ball which is actully a form of algae will absorb nitrates also.

 

[Sympledom]

You really need to increase the % of your water changes. With a 75 gallon tank it may be hard to deal with the volume of water but try and shoot for at least 50%. It would be even better to do a 75% water change a couple of times a week until your get your nitrates down. Some plants like Anacharis may help. Moss ball which is actully a form of algae will absorb nitrates also.

Thankyou for your feedback, I’m going to try some duck weed for now as that’s what my local store has readily available.

I am Very concerned about doing such a high volume water change with my fishes condition (maybe lymphocystis?) but also BGK are sensitive to abrupt water changes, I think I will start doing 25% going forward also please note I’m gravelvac every time I do a water change

 

[Byron]

I will not guess as to what this might be, but some members like @Colin or @Deanasue will likely have advice on treatment. But there are some related factors.

First, do not use any chemicals except water conditioner, and that minimally (only what is needed for the fresh water). All of these do negatively impact fish, and this species is very sensitive. Nutrafin Waste Control will weaken the fish further and may kill it.

Nitrates above 20 ppm impact all fish over time. They slowly weaken the fish until it can no longer cope with anything and it dies. The only way to deal with nitrate is massive water changes (assuming nitrates do not occur in the source water). And the sooner the better. There is no benefit, quite the opposite, of going slow to reduce nitrate. Down to zero in one water change would help this fish no end. The fact that this fish has lived through nitrates does not mean the fish has somehow miraculously escaped their poisoning effect. It is cumulative until it is too late.

Bloodworms should never be fed more than once a week. They are not nutritious, and they do cause health issues. I would not be surprised if this was not the direct cause behind this problem, but that is speculation. But bloodworms are not healthy.

Nothing in such cases will have more positive benefit that massive water change. Keep the temperature close; don't worry about GH or Kh they are irrelevant here.

 

[Retired Viking]

Doing gravelvac every time is good. As far as water changes if you try and keep the temperature of the new water close to the water in the tank that will help.

 

[Sympledom]

I will not guess as to what this might be, but some members like @Colin or @Deanasue will likely have advice on treatment. But there are some related factors.

First, do not use any chemicals except water conditioner, and that minimally (only what is needed for the fresh water). All of these do negatively impact fish, and this species is very sensitive. Nutrafin Waste Control will weaken the fish further and may kill it.

Nitrates above 20 ppm impact all fish over time. They slowly weaken the fish until it can no longer cope with anything and it dies. The only way to deal with nitrate is massive water changes (assuming nitrates do not occur in the source water). And the sooner the better. There is no benefit, quite the opposite, of going slow to reduce nitrate. Down to zero in one water change would help this fish no end. The fact that this fish has lived through nitrates does not mean the fish has somehow miraculously escaped their poisoning effect. It is cumulative until it is too late.

Bloodworms should never be fed more than once a week. They are not nutritious, and they do cause health issues. I would not be surprised if this was not the direct cause behind this problem, but that is speculation. But bloodworms are not healthy.

Nothing in such cases will have more positive benefit that massive water change. Keep the temperature close; don't worry about GH or Kh they are irrelevant here.

Thankyou for your feedback
Why would waste control weaken fish? (Honestly just curious)
The only tap conditioner I am using is prime, also for its affect of binding with nitrate

If I do 20-30% twice a week instead of 50% all in one shot, maybe that would work too?

If it is lymphocytis then from what I’ve read less stress the better recovery.

I’ve tried other foods but he has always preferred the blood worms. I’ve tried real meat (chicken hearts, fish, shrimp) I’ve tried plankton, brine shrimp, and obviously the blood worms. I’m going to try hikari cichlid food as when he was young and small I had fancy gold fish with him and he liked their food. Do you have any other suggestions on alternatives to blood worms suitable for a large carnivore? (Other than feederfish, I just can’t do it lol) also why would blood worms be lacking in nutrition? (Again just curious)

And I totally agree about your point about negative long term effects of nitrate exposure like I said I wish I would have been more on top of things a long time ago

 

[Retired Viking]

Also @Byron is pretty knowledgeable so I would try and follow his advice for the health your fish. Water changes are very important. I also only feed my fish bloodworms as a treat once or twice a month.

 

[Byron]

Why would waste control weaken fish? (Honestly just curious)

Knowing the physiology of fish would answer this. Fish continually take in water through every cell by osmosis; every substance in the water thus gets inside the fish, into the bloodstream where it is carried to internal organs. Even water conditioner. None of these are good for the fish. Over time the fish may react to varying degrees. But in all cases the fish are under stress by having to internally somehow "manage" these toxins and stress weakens fish. Thus, we add only what is absolutely essential, like water conditioner but minimally, and never useless "snake oil" preparations.

The only tap conditioner I am using is prime, also for its affect of binding with nitrate

This is not really helping, maybe the opposite. More chemicals entering the poor fish. Prime detoxifies ammonia/nitrite/nitrate but this is temporary, about 24-36 hours according to Seachem; after this, if the substances are still present, they become toxic as before. Prime somehow binds these things, it does not remove them. Prime is intended to deal with initial levels of ammonia/nitrite/nitrate in source water, but only minimal levels, to give the bacteria/plants time to effectively deal with the substance. It is not intended as some form of "cure," just so you know. Her you have nitrates occurring from the biological system, and Prime is of little benefit. Only major water changes will deal with this, and ASAP.

If I do 20-30% twice a week instead of 50% all in one shot, maybe that would work too?

No. Changing say 10% every day is not the same as changing 70% once a week, even though the volume would be the same. Removing 70% of the water now removes 70% of the nitrate and any other toxins, leaving 25% behind. Removing 25% of the water only removes 25% leaving 75%. To the fish, this is not really any help. And the continual small water changes do not really improve things.

If it is lymphocytis then from what I’ve read less stress the better recovery.

Without saying that is the issue...weighing the benefit of one massive water change to any stress it may cause...well, you should recognize the obvious answer. Making things better faster is always more beneficial. Think of it like your child being locked in a room and carbon monoxide is entering the room. You want to remove all of it rapidly. The benefit far outweighs any stress. And speaking of stress, the fish is now under such sever stress not much could make it worse...except prolonging the correction.

I’ve tried other foods but he has always preferred the blood worms. I’ve tried real meat (chicken hearts, fish, shrimp) I’ve tried plankton, brine shrimp, and obviously the blood worms. I’m going to try hikari cichlid food as when he was young and small I had fancy gold fish with him and he liked their food. Do you have any other suggestions on alternatives to blood worms suitable for a large carnivore? (Other than feederfish, I just can’t do it lol) also why would blood worms be lacking in nutrition? (Again just curious)

This is something that needed correction way back. There is very little nutritional value in bloodworms, they are fat, and every biologist and microbiologist recommends against feeding them more than once or twice a week. Bloodworms may keep the fish from starving, but they are negatively impacting it which in the end will win out. I honestly do not know what to suggest now. My point was that bloodworms are not good diet, and they do cause issues.

 

[Sympledom]

Knowing the physiology of fish would answer this. Fish continually take in water through every cell by osmosis; every substance in the water thus gets inside the fish, into the bloodstream where it is carried to internal organs. Even water conditioner. None of these are good for the fish. Over time the fish may react to varying degrees. But in all cases the fish are under stress by having to internally somehow "manage" these toxins and stress weakens fish. Thus, we add only what is absolutely essential, like water conditioner but minimally, and never useless "snake oil" preparations.



This is not really helping, maybe the opposite. More chemicals entering the poor fish. Prime detoxifies ammonia/nitrite/nitrate but this is temporary, about 24-36 hours according to Seachem; after this, if the substances are still present, they become toxic as before. Prime somehow binds these things, it does not remove them. Prime is intended to deal with initial levels of ammonia/nitrite/nitrate in source water, but only minimal levels, to give the bacteria/plants time to effectively deal with the substance. It is not intended as some form of "cure," just so you know. Her you have nitrates occurring from the biological system, and Prime is of little benefit. Only major water changes will deal with this, and ASAP.



No. Changing say 10% every day is not the same as changing 70% once a week, even though the volume would be the same. Removing 70% of the water now removes 70% of the nitrate and any other toxins, leaving 25% behind. Removing 25% of the water only removes 25% leaving 75%. To the fish, this is not really any help. And the continual small water changes do not really improve things.



Without saying that is the issue...weighing the benefit of one massive water change to any stress it may cause...well, you should recognize the obvious answer. Making things better faster is always more beneficial. Think of it like your child being locked in a room and carbon monoxide is entering the room. You want to remove all of it rapidly. The benefit far outweighs any stress. And speaking of stress, the fish is now under such sever stress not much could make it worse...except prolonging the correction.



This is something that needed correction way back. There is very little nutritional value in bloodworms, they are fat, and every biologist and microbiologist recommends against feeding them more than once or twice a week. Bloodworms may keep the fish from starving, but they are negatively impacting it which in the end will win out. I honestly do not know what to suggest now. My point was that bloodworms are not good diet, and they do cause issues.

Honestly Thankyou for your feedback, I have felt like I’m inbetweeb a rock and a hard place knowing I need to fix his water, but stress is harmful it was hard to prioritize what to target first, like using a fire extinguisher for 10 minutes and then pumping fresh oxygen for 10 min etc. to pair with your smoke analogy. I will be doing a large water change today, adding some plants, and changing his food. As you know from my initial post I am still very very concerned about his growth, but Thankyou SO much for the advice on getting his habitat to where it needs to be to recover anyways! I really do appreciate it

 

[FishGuest5123]

I’m not sure what this is but it does not look like lymphocytis.

 

[Sympledom]

I’m not sure what this is but it does not look like lymphocytis.

I don’t have a lot of experience with the more uncommon fish ailments, but I did find some references that were discusssed as lymphocytis, and some of the descriptions say they can colour anywhere from white to gray, depending on the fishes pigment, it is sloughing off like it is described but again I have no personal experience with lymphocitis

 

[Colin_T]

Whilst the growth has the right shape for Lymphocystis, it is the wrong colour. Lymphocystis is white and the growth on the fish is black.

If it is Lymphocystis, then it is caused by stress (high nitrates will definitely be a factor in this). Feeding a more varied diet and getting nitrates down to 0 would go a long way to helping the fish get rid of this.

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If you have concerns about doing a 75% water change, do a 50% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a couple of weeks. This will help reduce the nitrates but it won't be as quick as a 75% water change, (minimum should be 50% every week).
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

------------------
Don't feed chicken to fish, especially raw chicken, which is contaminated with drug resistant bacteria.

Bloodworms can be fed a couple of times a week but it should be included as part of a varied diet. Prawn and fish are good foods, as are small earth worms. Most pet shops sell Marine Mix, which consists of prawn, fish & squid that has been blended up and mixed together. Mysis shrimp, live or frozen brineshrimp and daphnia can also be offered.

If the fish has had the same diet for 7 years, it will probably ignore new foods. However, keep offering little bits of prawn or fish each day. Leave it in the tank for 5-10 minutes and then remove uneaten food. When the fish gets hungry, it will try the new foods and after a few weeks it should start eating them.

Live foods like brineshrimp and daphnia can stimulate a fish's appetite and get them to try new foods.

------------------
Make sure you clean the filters at least once a month. Dirty filters can contribute to poor health in fish and other inhabitants.

 

[Sympledom]

Whilst the growth has the right shape for Lymphocystis, it is the wrong colour. Lymphocystis is white and the growth on the fish is black.

If it is Lymphocystis, then it is caused by stress (high nitrates will definitely be a factor in this). Feeding a more varied diet and getting nitrates down to 0 would go a long way to helping the fish get rid of this.

------------------
If you have concerns about doing a 75% water change, do a 50% water change and gravel clean the substrate every day for a couple of weeks. This will help reduce the nitrates but it won't be as quick as a 75% water change, (minimum should be 50% every week).
Make sure any new water is free of chlorine/ chloramine before it's added to the tank.

------------------
Don't feed chicken to fish, especially raw chicken, which is contaminated with drug resistant bacteria.

Bloodworms can be fed a couple of times a week but it should be included as part of a varied diet. Prawn and fish are good foods, as are small earth worms. Most pet shops sell Marine Mix, which consists of prawn, fish & squid that has been blended up and mixed together. Mysis shrimp, live or frozen brineshrimp and daphnia can also be offered.

If the fish has had the same diet for 7 years, it will probably ignore new foods. However, keep offering little bits of prawn or fish each day. Leave it in the tank for 5-10 minutes and then remove uneaten food. When the fish gets hungry, it will try the new foods and after a few weeks it should start eating them.

Live foods like brineshrimp and daphnia can stimulate a fish's appetite and get them to try new foods.

------------------
Make sure you clean the filters at least once a month. Dirty filters can contribute to poor health in fish and other inhabitants.

These are the two sites that made me think “maybe it is just a a-typical presentation of lymphocytis” but I do know what you are saying and there is no sure way to tell.

Thankyou for your suggestions about the food!!! here’s to hoping he does better from here!!