Tilapia with endlers… stress or ok?

[Endlersendlers]

I’m kind of embarrassed to ask this question but here goes. I learned about the exponential reproductive rate of endlers and at one point solved the problem (I thought) of overcrowding by rehoming several in the tilapia pond. I gave them lots of cover and places to hide. Tilapia turn vegetarian as they get older, which they were, and there were no tilapia fry at that time. Since then, the tilapia started breeding so there are younger omnivores. I think everyone is well fed and happy, and the endlers swim with the tilapia fingerlings as if they are schooling together.

Am I delusional in thinking this is ok? Part of me thinks it is ridiculous to put these species together and yet the endlers are still multiplying and usually swim out in the open in loose groups and not necessarily staying together. (I now take some to the LFS every so often.) is that a good sign that they are not stressed?

 

[Colin_T]

tilapia eat endlers.

 

[Endlersendlers]

I was hoping not to hear that. De Nile is not just a River in Africa? So I saved them from getting overcrowded only to submit them to living in terror? They have places to hide but they’re not, and there’s more now than would want to be in the hide outs. I read when one is hurt they send out alarm pheromones. Hopefully they never knew. I was rounding up the males and taking them to the LFS, so those were getting out of there to safety (I hope), but not the females and unlucky ones.

My next problem is separating them because I have trouble to tell them apart (except males obviously) until the tilapia grow out just a little more. I tried looking at fins, body shape, surface, but my eyes are just not picking up the differences at that size. Just a little larger and it’s so obvious with the shape and scaling but I’m just not getting it at guppy size. I suppose I could take out as much of the endler-sized fish as possible, keep doing that as I see them, and when the tilapia grow out just enough to be obvious they can go back in the pond. Then I can call around and give those females to an LFS as well. If only I’d thought of that (LFS) before they ever went in the pond. Thanks for telling me now so I can rescue them.

 

[Endlersendlers]

tilapia eat endlers.

So… I was thinking how awful that is, but is it really? Wouldn’t it be one gulp, no fear hormones in the water? They’re schooling together with similar size Tilapia so maybe they don’t even know. Should I get over it, it’s nature? A lot of fish need live food, what’s the difference? I can’t get another tank right now, spouse rules.
Someone did suggest making a floating grotto from egg crate material, like fluorescent light grids, lightly gravel and plant it and then they can hang out there when they want to relax.

 

[GaryE]

It isn't even close to nature.

In nature, the endlers would be in a Venezuelan habitat ideal for their survival, in which they had evolved and in which they used to thrive, prior to human intervention in their fate.

I don't know know which Tilapia you have, but it would have been in Africa, in a radically different habitat. They would never have met, and their specific needs would have been taken care of by the habitat.

You put them together, and there's no justification for letting the carnage take its course. Leaving them together would be laziness and cruelty, if you do it. I don't think you will because you bothered asking about the situation.

The solution is easy enough. Tilapia should outgrow your tank, so into the pond with all of them. You're going to spend a lot of time with a net., triaging Tilapia out...I'm a nerd who says everyone should read up on their fish BEFORE they combine them, and man, that would have been quicker.

 

[Endlersendlers]

It isn't even close to nature.

In nature, the endlers would be in a Venezuelan habitat ideal for their survival, in which they had evolved and in which they used to thrive, prior to human intervention in their fate.

I don't know know which Tilapia you have, but it would have been in Africa, in a radically different habitat. They would never have met, and their specific needs would have been taken care of by the habitat.

You put them together, and there's no justification for letting the carnage take its course. Leaving them together would be laziness and cruelty, if you do it. I don't think you will because you bothered asking about the situation.

The solution is easy enough. Tilapia should outgrow your tank, so into the pond with all of them. You're going to spend a lot of time with a net., triaging Tilapia out...I'm a nerd who says everyone should read up on their fish BEFORE they combine them, and man, that would have been quicker.

Yes, it would have been. I keep netting the endlers out, gave probably 40 or 50 to a fish store last weekend, but it will be a challenge to get all of them.

I did a lot of research on my community tanks and have had no problems there, until the endlers population boom and that act of desperation. Since then I’ve gotten to know people at 3 LFSs and can give them away. Now I just need the eye to differentiate the not obviously pregnant females from same-size tilapia. Shouldn’t that not be so difficult? Just had an idea - I could put those questionable (same size) ones in a tank and toss the tilapia back in as they grow out to be obvious.

I really did believe, when I did that, that the tilapia being good sized and older, were now vegetarian (which they become with age and is why the older ones don’t eat fry) and just weren’t breeding because I didn’t have the right set up for that to happen, so they might all coexist peacefully. I haven’t actually seen any hunting behavior or carnage, and I don’t say that to mean it’s not happening, but that I didn’t knowingly let it happen and have been trying to get them out of there now that I do know.

Hey, thanks for being tactful with this. In the real world I think I would have just got ripped apart.

 

[Endlersendlers]

The solution is easy enough. Tilapia should outgrow your tank, so into the pond with all of them. You're going to spend a lot of time with a net., triaging Tilapia out...

I realize what I did here. I misunderstood you to think I had them in a tank to begin with, not getting that you’re suggesting what I then thought was my original idea…

Just had an idea - I could put those questionable (same size) ones in a tank and toss the tilapia back in as they grow out to be obvious.

I’m giving credit back where it belongs. Great idea Collin, I think I’ll do that! Better?

So this morning I spent 45 minutes netting little fish out, am getting better at separating smaller tilapia by the protruding eyes, and felt there’s only a handful left. Probably means I got only 70% leaving the smartest and luckiest (net-wise at least). Into a couple 15 gallons for now, triage and rescue missions to be continued.

Thanks for your help!

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

I realize what I did here. I misunderstood you to think I had them in a tank to begin with, not getting that you’re suggesting what I then thought was my original idea…

I’m giving credit back where it belongs. Great idea Collin, I think I’ll do that! Better?

So this morning I spent 45 minutes netting little fish out, am getting better at separating smaller tilapia by the protruding eyes, and felt there’s only a handful left. Probably means I got only 70% leaving the smartest and luckiest (net-wise at least). Into a couple 15 gallons for now, triage and rescue missions to be continued.

Thanks for your help!

Credit to you or recognising the mistake, being willing to risk a spanking (I know what you mean about being torn apart in some places! People can be really harsh in this hobby sometimes, but this place isn't usually like that!) and credit for caring and doing the work to separate them out. Good luck getting all the little ones separated!

 

[Endlersendlers]

Credit to you or recognising the mistake, being willing to risk a spanking (I know what you mean about being torn apart in some places! People can be really harsh in this hobby sometimes, but this place isn't usually like that!) and credit for caring and doing the work to separate them out. Good luck getting all the little ones separated!

Thank you for seeing it that way. I asked knowing I might take a beating for it but told myself my ego or their little lives, ask. They really are at the mercy of our good and bad decisions, not like they can run away from home and find another water body (although some might get lucky and jump to the next tank, not so with this pond). Netted more out at lunch, now the ones left seem only the most determined escapists. I have to give them a break. I’m supposed to be rescuing, not terrorizing them until they are tired and end up eaten. They do have places larger ones can’t go, but they are too brave for their own good (until the net comes out).

 

[AdoraBelle Dearheart]

Thank you for seeing it that way. I asked knowing I might take a beating for it but told myself my ego or their little lives, ask. They really are at the mercy of our good and bad decisions, not like they can run away from home and find another water body (although some might get lucky and jump to the next tank, not so with this pond). Netted more out at lunch, now the ones left seem only the most determined escapists. I have to give them a break. I’m supposed to be rescuing, not terrorizing them until they are tired and end up eaten. They do have places larger ones can’t go, but they are too brave for their own good (until the net comes out).

Luckily, guppies and endlers are some of the easiest to net! I was using a net in the tank for something else today, not to catch fish, but the darn guppies were practically jumping into the thing every time I had to lift it out!

By all means, give them a break, and yourself one too! Next attempt, feed them then use two large nets and scoop them up from below.

 

[OnlyGenusCaps]

advocate...

It isn't even close to nature.

It's not native biotope, but fish eating other fish is pretty typical. They don't know or care that they aren't native to the same continent. There's a number of places where guppies have been introduced in Africa. Would guppies being fed to the African fish from those regions be "nature" now?

You put them together, and there's no justification for letting the carnage take its course.

I mean, it doesn't sound like there is any "carnage" yet, so that feels a bit dramatic.

In terms of justification for allowing fish to ever eat other fish, many breeders keep some form of predator tank for their culls. Is that less humane than sending them all the the clove oil bin? Chilling them until death? Culls are the dark shadow that stalks the joyous form of breeding fish.

Additionally, some fish that people keep really like to eat other live fish. For example, folks who keep fish like Monocirrhus polyacanthus - Amazon leaffish - often keep their own colonies of Endler's or guppies as a clean and controlled feeder source. In that sense, the prior example is not much different than keeping daphnia or moina colonies for those who keep Dario dario - scarlet badis. I mean, think of the tiny crustacean carnage there!

 

[Endlersendlers]

Luckily, guppies and endlers are some of the easiest to net! I was using a net in the tank for something else today, not to catch fish, but the darn guppies were practically jumping into the thing every time I had to lift it out!

By all means, give them a break, and yourself one too! Next attempt, feed them then use two large nets and scoop them up from below.

Good point. So on that basis, I may have gotten them all. All that are left (that I see) are less than 10 who can bolt across the width of the tank in a nanosecond without apparent effort. No one with fluttering tails. I have a container with suspected tilapias (good to separate anyway for their higher protein feed to make sure they get it and they’re eating) and another for suspected and known endlers. I can triage any mistakes to the tilapia grow out tank, and into the pond as they grow out. I’ll still keep an eye out but the hardest part is done.

Thanks- I did try the two nets but it’s hard to reach across and ended up putting one on a pole. Took a lot of patience even trying to scoop from below because they saw the pole and were on to me, although when food was involved they cared more about that and I could get them. I fed them after the transfer so they weren’t cheated out of a good meal.

 

[Endlersendlers]

advocate...

It's not native biotope, but fish eating other fish is pretty typical. They don't know or care that they aren't native to the same continent. There's a number of places where guppies have been introduced in Africa. Would guppies being fed to the African fish from those regions be "nature" now?


I mean, it doesn't sound like there is any "carnage" yet, so that feels a bit dramatic.

In terms of justification for allowing fish to ever eat other fish, many breeders keep some form of predator tank for their culls. Is that less humane than sending them all the the clove oil bin? Chilling them until death? Culls are the dark shadow that stalks the joyous form of breeding fish.

Additionally, some fish that people keep really like to eat other live fish. For example, folks who keep fish like Monocirrhus polyacanthus - Amazon leaffish - often keep their own colonies of Endler's or guppies as a clean and controlled feeder source. In that sense, the prior example is not much different than keeping daphnia or moina colonies for those who keep Dario dario - scarlet badis. I mean, think of the tiny crustacean carnage there!

Thank you for that!

I have wondered what people do with their culls when raising such proliferate species. Some say they give them away and don’t kill any but I’d think you’d run out of willing children and friends to take them. Not judging, just saying. If you let them multiply freely, and with some species it’s nearly impossible to really prevent, eventually even the best intentioned person would run out of space to prevent the dreaded “overstocked” situation and have to start making decisions. Even no decision is a decision and disease and cannibalism begins. A seemingly easy answer is to give them to the LFS, but they have limits too. If everybody does this, they become cheap feeder fish and it just happens somewhere else. If you’re a breeder trying to raise and sell the best for profit and make a reputation for breeding the best, giving away your culls might undermine your business. In a decent sized pond, in order to set up an ecosystem, different sized fish are recommended to establish a balanced food chain. Guess what’s happening there. Minnows, bluegill, large mouth bass, catfish… People add gourami’s or a betta to a guppy tank to prevent overcrowding or just leave the fry with the parents (which could be the no decision option) and let the parents eat what they can. Even with lots of vegetation to help them hide, the expectation is that numbers stay manageable and most people cannot accommodate hundreds of fry from one pregnant female who met a male once, let alone of her offspring. Most fish stores don’t want the plain looking endler females not to mention the population explosion. I had to drive 45 minutes one way to an LFS with space and willingness to take free(!) endlers and I am in a densely populated area. So I expect a lot of hobbyists have to make choices and some are more creative and resourceful in finding solutions they can be proud of and are willing to share. The predator tank is an easy out and call it nature. But would nature put a helpless species in a glass box with a powerful predator, or would there be a larger world they might or might not find a way to escape? Perhaps a topic for a new thread.

 

[GaryE]

From my experience with Tilapia, I see no slow picking. Once they discover the food source, they clean it out and move on.

If you posed it as "Can my endlers be fed to Tilapia?" you would have a point. If you maintain illusions about having some sort of community based on nature, that's not legit. I don't recall you talking about getting rid of all your endler's. Should you decide to, Tilapia are one method. What you do with Tilapia in a tank the size of yours is a whole other issue. As a choice it's an interesting one.

Using feeders? If it's planned, fair enough. If it's unplanned, it's an ugly mistake. You don't seem interested in keeping and breeding a Tilapia colony, whichever member of the group you have. Correct me if I'm wrong there and you are conditioning them for breeding. You were thinking they were vegetarian. By preference, they are mostly herbivores, but they take what they can get, happily. Your original post has drifted a long way off in the rear view mirror. You were looking for a convenient way to keep 2 species, from what I saw.
Whichever of the 2 you keep, enjoy.

 

[Endlersendlers]

I am keeping both and they are separated back out.