Thought goldfish were supposed to be hardy?!

[patchwork_python]

Hi folks,

I've kept tropicals for over 10 years now but have only ever had one goldfish tank when I was little and I can't remember that lasting very long!

So now I am having another go, properly. Will be setting up a four foot tank long term but at the moment I have a 2ftx15insx15ins tank with a 3ins shubunkin (how do you spell that properly?!) and a 2.5inch redcap comet. Was sold as a comet but looks like an ordinary goldfish to me, apart from the colour. How do you tell if it's a comet or a normal goldfish?

Anyway, if this was a tropical tank I think I would be all set up, stocked and planted by now without any problems. Goldfish, coldwater, however, thats another story! The tank was set up approximately 8-10 weeks ago (I'll check my diary and tell you when exactly if it helps), I orginally bought 2 baby, baby fantails/orandas, both less than 2ins each. I left the tank running a week before I introduced them and within about 2 weeks my ammonia was peaking. Or so I thought. I was thinking being coldwater it would take longer?

So I upped the water changes and added ammo lock, and when that wasn't making any significant improvement I added zeolite to the filter and it started to come down. But not soon enough, one fantail died and had symptoms of finrot. Now whether this was down to ammonia poisoning or disease I don't know, but the second fantail only lived another week before dying of the same thing. The deaths were really sudden, and even treating with protozin after the first fish died didn't save the last one. The shop told me later that that particular batch of goldfish they had in suffered finrot so

So after the first fantail died, the other fish was moping about and lonely (might just have been ill tho?), so I thought best get it a companion. Didn't want to spend alot on another fantail, and thought probably best to get something a little less delicate, hence the shub. Now I know you're not supposed to mix twin-tailed and single-tailed fish but these were somewhat special circumstances. Anyway, the two got on fine and the shub was doing great and growing, ammonia was lowering (also cut back on feeding to once a day, rather than two) and so I thought, time to get poor Panda (the shub) a friend.

So, I went back to the shop he/she came from, thinking best not to mix fish from different shops in case of disease. And here's where my problem starts. The redcap was kept in a vat so it wasn't that easy to examine closely. It looked healthy and the only poorly fish I saw in there was one that was being bullied and had it's fins nipped. When I got it into the bag to go home tho, I noticed it had a few scales missing. Nothing major I thought, dealt with those on tropicals before and they have always healed themselves with good water, good diet and a stress-free environment. However, I now have an absolutely horrendous outbreak of whitespot in my tank, and can only assume it came off the redcap.

What is more, with the extra fish, the ammonia has started to rise again so I am battling both at once! I am doing daily 30% water changes with ammo lock and adding protozin as directed, with extra to compensate for the water changes. So far, no response. Both fish are sitting on the floor of the tank looking very sorry for themselves. They will move if I open the lid and are feeding on small amounts but I just can't seem to shift these spots.

I dipped them both in a salt solution last night as it was the only other treatment I had available aside from methylene blue and Interpret Anti Whitespot, which I have found to be pretty useless with tropicals and the way they look just now I am not hopeful of being able to bring them through this. The spots seem to be marginally better but their overall condition is pretty poor.

I have done a bit of searching online with regards to treatments, and have read formalin and/or malachite green can be used as a dip with goldfish/koi as well. I don't want to add it to the main tank if possible as I know it will knock out whatever good filter bacteria has already built up. I am using Cycle as well but don't really want to strip and start again if possible.

So, lovely people with more goldfish experience than me, where am I going wrong?! And any more suggestions how to treat my fish are appreciated, as I've done all I can think of.

Thanks in advance!

 

[ryan]

Ok, sorry to hear this. It sounds to me as though the fish you are buying are infected, the first two may have already contained the disease or caught it from your bad water conditions, but the Comet sounds like he may have transmitted a disease, Goldfish generally aren't bullies and won't nip smaller fish unless they are ill, it sounds like the fish in the corner had a disease. The fact that the Comet had missing scales is also important: it means that the protective slime coating was damaged allowing infection be it bacterial or parasitic to set in.

How big is the Comet, what filter, can you give me the gallon size of your tank?

 

[patchwork_python]

It is approximately 10 UK gallons and is filtered by an internal power filter which should turn the whole tank volume over at least twice every hour but I will look out the packaging and check exactly what the flow rate is. I am sure it will be higher than this tho.

It also has an air pump, an Interpet AP3 if thats any help. I bought bigger to use on their bigger tank. Will get flow rates for that as well.

I now only have the comet left as of tonight, Panda has died It is about 2.5ins. Don't know if it will last the night tho.....

 

[ryan]

Well 10g is way way to small for Goldfish, a general rule that is best is 20g minimum and another 10g for every additional fish. Comets should also be given more room as they are Powerful swimmers.

With heavy waste producers like Goldfish a 10g and its filter won't be able to cope which could explain the high ammonia levels.

 

[schrader3649]

ditto, too many fish in too small of a tank

 

[patchwork_python]

Thanks for the replies. I have no goldfish left now but your comments mean I can learn from my mistakes. I have decided not to have a go with goldfish again until I can get my 4ft x 12ins x 15ins tank set up again. I used to have tropicals in it before I upgraded them all. It's been scrubbed out and is doing nothing atm. I have an external filter for this one but I still need a few bits to make a proper tank set up.

I want to make sure I go about this the right way. Ideally I eventually wanted to have a red cap veiltail, a red and white ryukin and a black moor. Is that feasible with this size of tank with external filteration? Also, should I cycle it first with common goldfish or something like white clouds, before adding the more fancy varities?

Any other things I should know about the differences between coldwater and tropical would be helpful.

Thanks for everything so far.

 

[kaz petts]

Do not put any fancies in with commons.
If you get a black moor you must get other fancies. If you get one common goldie to start with you must get other commons to go with.
The 4' tank, what is the gallonage (I know not a proper word).
Like Ryan said, you need at least 20g for the first fish and then 10g per every other fish so for 3 goldies you will need at least a 40g tank for them to be happy. Goldies grow very big and are very messy fish.
I wish you all the best. I learnt from making mistakes too, not the best way but I think alot of people on here probably learnt the same way.
Good luck
Kaz