The Science Behind Acclimitisation

I think everyone's thinking too much. If something's always worked for you..........

:lol: How true this is! I tell this to the planted people all the time! :lol:

Good thread, Miss Wiggle, I think this is an important discussion and the new method I tried, TBH, blew my mind. It was something I would have never have done if left to my own devices, but it ended up working amazingly well. Took my C. pulcher half the time to adjust to tank life than it did my Brochis, which were from a LFS and acclimized (sp) the traditional way. Oh, and congrats on the new job too. :good: I start a new job in August. :D Employment is a wonderful thing. Gives you more money for your hobbies. :p

Jollysue, glad you celebrate the old-timers. :good: I used UGFs exclusively the first 5-7 years I was in this hobby. I even managed to grow some basic plants. Of course, your needs change and you move on to different things.

llj :)
 
I've always used the airline drip method to acclimatise fish from different water chemistries to London tapwater and have never lost a fish during the process. The water that Trimar ship in is extreemly soft so it takes longer to equalise than some other places but still no more than 6 or 7 hours.
Agreed - and I've never (yet, touch wood) had any problems using this method :good:
 
well I've never used the drip method at all.
at the most I float the bag for 10 mins or so and then net the fish out and release them.
never had a problem.

in my old job when we had deliveries from overseas they were floated for 30 mins and
again netted out then put in the QT tanks. no one bothered with pH adjusting or drip acclimatising
and we never had any problems (except the usual with some poor neon/cardinals from Singapore)

I remember reading somewhere and posting a link on here (can't find it atm) about scientists reducing the pH
down to below 3 (without effecting any other parameters) and not a single fish died.
leading to the theory that it is another explanation why fish die from so called 'pH shock'.
 
The-Wolf, I cannot stay up with your name. It changes. :look: Did you keep the bag closed until they were plopped? That is so funny..."plopped"... :lol: :lol: :lol:

<<<I'm okay; I forgot to go to bed last night after cleaning tanks for 8+ hours non stop for the third day. 8) >>>
 
my name hasn't changed since 2005 :S

yes bags are closed when floating
 
my name hasn't changed since 2005 :S

yes bags are closed when floating

The way you print it has changed, hasn't it? Didn't I just see it The__Wolf not long ago, or was I strolling down memory lane? :unsure:

Oh, well, too far off topic, sorry.
 
Here is an interesting article titled "Shipping Practices in the Ornamental Fish Industry ". Everything you ever wanted to know about fish shipping. I found the whole article quite interesting but for this discussion you might want to just skip down to the section titled "Receiving Practices". Keep in mind that they are talking about a lot of fish in these bags with not a lot of water and after a trip of 24-48 hours.

Shipping Practices


I'll also add that I also received a shipment of corys just yesterday from Bryan and followed his recommended methods and they did just fine. Much better than fish I've had shipped to me from other places and and used the more traditional slow method of adding water to the bag.
 
What is commonly called "pH shock" actually very rarely is caused by pH. According to Evans, Piermarini, and Choe "The Multifunctional Fish Gill: Dominant Site of Gas Exchange, Osmoregulation, Acid-Base Regulation, and Excretion of Nitrogenous Waste" Physiology Review 2005, the return of blood towards the control pH is primarily due to adjustments of blood bicarbonate concentrations via exchange of acid-base equivalents at the gills. Over 90% of the action occurs at the gills.

Basically, what it boils down to is that the fish exchanges CO2, Na+, and Cl- at the gills until the pH balance between the water and their internals is just the way they want it. Another quote from the above article: "Although variable with the type and extent of the acid-base disturbance, compensatory transport is usually activated within 20-30 min of the disturbance and can reach net-acid or net-base excretion rates of 1,000 micromol per kg per hour."

Just some "back of the envelope" calculations: If I just let the flux rate be 100 micromol per kg per hour, I think that that means that the fish can change its internal pH around 4 units per hour per kg of the fish or faster down to a pH of 4.0 (after that the time starts increasing exponentially, i.e. 10 hours to get down to 3.0) I actually don't know what the internal pH of a fish is... anyone?. So, smaller fish (smaller kg) can change their pH faster -- makes sense, smaller circulatory system, easy to change concentrations in a smaller volume.

What is really interesting is that the acid-base exchange rate is also dependent upon the salt (Na+ and Cl-) solution, so GH and KH play a much larger role than may be usually suspected. This thread http://www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=123070 linked to a site whose author deduced this relationship from experience.

Nature shows how quickly fish can adapt to pH changes as well. Firstly, in ponds and lakes, the pH can change as much as 2.0 pH units throughout the day as the sun comes up, the aquatic plants activity changes, the body of water's temperature changes, etc. and again as the sun sets. More dramatically is what happens to fish during periods of high rain and runoff from the ground. There aren't massive fish kills everytime it rains hard, but the pH of the rainwater is rarely the same as the pH of the body of water it runs to.

Basically, in synopsis here, fish can adapt to a change in pH pretty quickly, if the ion exchanges are favorable. The measure we as fishkeepers use to know how much ion exchange is available is the hardness measurements, KH & GH. If the hardnesses of the store/bag water and your tank water are close, the fish will be able to exchange the ions it needs to balance its pH quickly. If the hardnesses are significantly different, the ions are either going to want to quickly leave the fish or quickly enter the fish -- either way it will be much harder to control and much harder for the fish to use the exchanges to balance its internal pH. Hence, "pH shock" should probably really be termed "hardness shock" since it is differences in hardness that are much harder for the fish to acclimate to than a large change in pH if conditions are right.
 
Bignose and Polardbear:
Really great additions and informative.

All speculation aside, it's hard to argue with the science. Just goes to show that there are still lots of pratices floating around that are not based on the science but on speculation and old pactices we thought were true without any basis in fact. Pretty well answers my questions about which is worse ph shock or ammonia burn.

Add salt--Really? :p
 
Bignose and Polardbear:
Really great additions and informative.

:nod:

while pH shock may not be caused by pH at all, there are any number of factors in our tank water that will likely be different to the water they were shipped in, be it pH or something else i do think there is potential for shock to the fish when transferring between different water parameters. there may be factors in our water that we do not even consider as important but scientific discoveries in the next few years may prove to be vital to our fish's well-being. likewise i'm sure some of our practices now will be the 'old water and salt' methods in 20 years time.

well you've certainly sparked my curiosity enough to try it, i'll let you know how i get on. :)
 
Bignose and Polardbear:
Really great additions and informative.

All speculation aside, it's hard to argue with the science. Just goes to show that there are still lots of pratices floating around that are not based on the science but on speculation and old pactices we thought were true without any basis in fact. Pretty well answers my questions about which is worse ph shock or ammonia burn.

Add salt--Really? :p

Shh! Don't get the salt debate going again! :hyper: :shout: :crazy:
 
Basically, in synopsis here, fish can adapt to a change in pH pretty quickly, if the ion exchanges are favorable. The measure we as fishkeepers use to know how much ion exchange is available is the hardness measurements, KH & GH. If the hardnesses of the store/bag water and your tank water are close, the fish will be able to exchange the ions it needs to balance its pH quickly. If the hardnesses are significantly different, the ions are either going to want to quickly leave the fish or quickly enter the fish -- either way it will be much harder to control and much harder for the fish to use the exchanges to balance its internal pH. Hence, "pH shock" should probably really be termed "hardness shock" since it is differences in hardness that are much harder for the fish to acclimate to than a large change in pH if conditions are right.

Tom Barr has referred to the importance of KH changes on fish over pH more than once in the plants and planted tank section. Sometimes, these useful nuggets of info just seem to pass the hobby by and perceived myths carry on.

Dave.
 
Shh! Don't get the salt debate going again! :hyper: :shout: :crazy:

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :hey:

Sometimes, these useful nuggets of info just seem to pass the hobby by and perceived myths carry on.

Dave.


Ya think?

Reminds me of the dsl vs cable (Comcast) internet connection commercial: the turtle is struggling and grunting, pushing the laptop across the lawn to get the fastest connection. The little lady in the ranch style house yells "Push It!" He yells back, "YOU push it!" pause "Push it real good!" Grunt, struggle.

Trying to figure out all the factors involved in the water parameters and conditions and components is like trying to map all the stars and planets or the sand in the sea.

Heard of chaos theory, Anyone?
 
I received another shipment of corys today (from Bryan) and decided to do some tests on the shipping water.

The corys were picked up by FedEx on July 2 at 5:49 PM (EST) in Florida and arrived at my home in Arizona on July 3 at 9:30 AM (PDT). This equates to roughly 19 hours in transit. I don't know how much ahead of time they were bagged and boxed prior to pickup. The bags were floated for 20 minutes and then opened and fish were placed immediately in my tanks. I saved the water from the bags and immediately did a couple of tests.

10:00 AM - 10 minutes after opening bag - (my pH test kit's minimum level is 6.0) the bag water tested just barely at 6.0 pH and the ammonia level was at 2.0

10:15 AM - tested 2 more tubes - pH had risen to 6.4 and ammonia to 4.0

10:30 AM - tested 2 more tubes - pH had risen to 6.6 and ammonia to 6.0

11:30 AM - tested 2 more tubes - pH had risen to 6.8 and ammonia stayed at 6.0

Didn't get to test the remaining water again until 3:30 PM - pH had risen to 7.2, ammonia stayed at 6.0.

The pH of the water at Bryan's facility ranges from 7.2-7.8 with a GH of 180 ppm.

I don't have any way to test c02 levels.

The water in my tank has a pH of 8.0, I'd love to be able to tell you what my GH is but the GH test kit doesn't go high enough.

The sudden change from a pH of 6.0 to 8.0 didn't seem to phase them. They've been doing the happy cory dance non stop from the moment they hit the tank, they're still at it even now 16 hours later.

Would I use this method with other types of fish? Maybe, maybe not. If I thought that a particular species was overly sensitive to pH changes then I might consider "plopping" them into a bucket of RO water mix and then gradually bringing up the pH using the drip method but since I know what my water is like (cement) I don't even try to keep species that can't handle it. Seeing how high the ammonia level rose in 30 minutes was a real eye-opener though!
 
The ammonia level shouldn't be rising that quickly. Ammonia test kites don't differntiate between ammonia and ammonium, so the suggested changes would not be measured there.

The increase in pH was interesting.
 

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