The Science Behind Acclimitisation

[Tolak]

I've been drip acclimating for years with fish obtained from a source where I don't know the water parameters. For fish locally obtained who have been in the same water I'll float the bag, add a little water, pour the bag of water into a net over a bucket to catch the fish, then add them to the tank. For drip acclimating, or acclimating local fish that have been bagged for several hours I get the bottle of Ammo-Lock open & ready before I open the bag. Immediately after cutting the bag open I give it a few drops to a squirt depending on the shipping time & amount of water.

Always got a good idea, Tolak. You are a true Chicago pragmatist! I have gooten a good idea from you every time you offer your experience.

TY!

I agree with A.D., this is a good topic, and I have been instructed by different shippers to use the drip, or the plop method. Some time ago a couple other breeders & I went in on a shipment of 60 small discus. I dripped, another guy plopped, and a third started dripping, got bored, and plopped them after about 1/2 hour. Guess what, we all had the same results. They were all fine for a few days, started loosing one or two a week, after a couple of months over half died. The rest got sold, we didn't even break even.

Don't listen to other aquarists that have killer deals on half price discus, the guy who found this "deal" is still hearing about this. It's actually my fault for listening to him, he's good for coming up with some quick money deals that often don't pan out. It ends up the seller was having them shipped in to Cali from Indonesia, rebagging & reshipping. There isn't an acclimation procedure known yet to counteract this problem. Besides this little scam everything I have gotten in has acclimated fine.

 

[jollysue]

So the "plop" method is the one I just used? Bryan of CorysRUs says it is a well used method by importers. He imports fish from all over the world. And you are familiar with it and it is an accepted method?

I think that the Ammo Lock certainly sounds like the thing to do if using the drip method with fish that have been in bag water for any length of time.

When I recieved the fish in bags of dead fish, the ones I took out and immediately plopped into an aquarium, because they were in bags that smelled and were rancid from their dead mates, did as well or better than the ones I spent hours acclimating. It never occured to me to use AmmoLock. I have the powder Ammonia reducer from Kordon. Is that the same thing?

What is TY?

Tolak: The voice of reason and experience

You are certainly correct: Know your shipper and supplier. Dodgy deals and cut rates are a tragedy waiting to happen.

 

[Miss Wiggle]

i don't dispute that this method works, the potential pH shock from the sellers water to your tank water may well be a less dangerous route than another hr in water with even a small ammonia content that they have been shipped in. I can see the merits of it and although as you have said it's anecdotal evidence, it's still evidence of a sort. Obviously significantly more evidence accurately monitored and collated would have to happen before anything can be 'proven' but it's a start.

all i would think is not true is the idea that the Co2 produced by the fish drops the pH low enough for ammonia to be anywhere near non toxic or just significantly less toxic than it would be at the natural pH of the water (i.e. the pH it will return to when the bag is opened).

it's a recognised method of testing the Co2 content of the water to monitor the pH, 30ppm of Co2 gives you a pH drop of roughly 1 point. 30ppm Co2 is what planted tank enthusiasts commonly aim for as it's about as high as the fish can safely take. So to drop the pH by 2 points or so you'd need enough Co2 in there to suffocate the fish. So while the theory stands up and the Co2 will make the ammonia marginally less toxic, IMHO it will not be a big enough drop to prevent ammonia burn in transit or induce it when the bag is opened.

glad you guys think this is an interesting topic I certainly do. was all chuffed with myself yesterday for researching this and getting my head around the science behind it. how sad is that! lol

as jollysue said

the point is really about the toxic ammonia. Which is worse? Toxic ammonia or ph change? What is the best condition for the fish??

it is obviously going to depend a lot on the individual circumstances, if the fish have been shipped a long way or there are several to a bag and i knew the pH difference was not vast I'd want to get them out of the shipping water asap

but with a few fish in lots of water shipped in under 24hrs i wouldn't be that concerned by the levels of ammonia in the bag i'd be a little more concerned over the potential pH drop.

so does anyone know if there is a level of pH change that would be deemed to be 'acceptable' for fish, obviously not really delicate species but just as an average, how big a pH change can they handle before it gets too bad?

my annecdotal evidence is a drop of 2 pH points is a bit much to do suddenly and at that level fish should be acclimitised to it.

 

[jollysue]

it's a recognised method of testing the Co2 content of the water to monitor the pH, 30ppm of Co2 gives you a pH drop of roughly 1 point. 30ppm Co2 is what planted tank enthusiasts commonly aim for as it's about as high as the fish can safely take. So to drop the pH by 2 points or so you'd need enough Co2 in there to suffocate the fish. So while the theory stands up and the Co2 will make the ammonia marginally less toxic, IMHO it will not be a big enough drop to prevent ammonia burn in transit or induce it when the bag is opened.

So when will you do this testing? What fish will you use?

 

[Dorkhedeos]

hrmm, ammolock. would prime work as well?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

it's a recognised method of testing the Co2 content of the water to monitor the pH, 30ppm of Co2 gives you a pH drop of roughly 1 point. 30ppm Co2 is what planted tank enthusiasts commonly aim for as it's about as high as the fish can safely take. So to drop the pH by 2 points or so you'd need enough Co2 in there to suffocate the fish. So while the theory stands up and the Co2 will make the ammonia marginally less toxic, IMHO it will not be a big enough drop to prevent ammonia burn in transit or induce it when the bag is opened.

So when will you do this testing? What fish will you use?

ha ha not saying i wil test this, just that the standard or accepted method of testing for Co2 content (without a science lab) is by testing the pH and calculating the Co2 content from the drop in pH.

I guess you could test it by putting the fish in something more sturdy than a bag but see through, like some tupperware and setting up a permanenet Co2 test in there like they do in planted tanks. then you could monitor the colour change of the Co2 test to see what level it gets too after 24/48hrs etc etc. Don't fancy putting my fish through it unnescessarily though, anyone fancy it?

 

[jollysue]

hrmm, ammolock. would prime work as well?

They really aren't the same thing.


Using Ammo-Lock, would there then be resulting nitrite immediately?

 

[Miss Wiggle]

now there's another discussion, we were talking about what ammo lock actually does the other day on a thread, it seems slightly unclear.

my thoughts although this is as yet un-confirmed by the makers (rdd e-mailed them i think) is that it converts ammonia to ammonium which is significantly less toxic. so while your ammonia test would still show a reading for ammonia it would almost be a distorted reading and not half as harmfull as teh reading indicated.

 

[vinylman]

I think everyone's thinking too much. If something's always worked for you..........

 

[andywg]

I think everyone's thinking too much. If something's always worked for you..........

Too right.

After all, many people did fine with UGF on tanks that had no water changes for years but just some salt and carbon added.

Without questionning why something might work you will never truly understand why it works, or if it even works at all ( or is just a placebo).

 

[Miss Wiggle]

I think everyone's thinking too much. If something's always worked for you..........

ha ha thinking too much is a big problem for me in many ways!

i like to know how things tick though

 

[jollysue]

now there's another discussion, we were talking about what ammo lock actually does the other day on a thread, it seems slightly unclear.

my thoughts although this is as yet un-confirmed by the makers (rdd e-mailed them i think) is that it converts ammonia to ammonium which is significantly less toxic. so while your ammonia test would still show a reading for ammonia it would almost be a distorted reading and not half as harmfull as teh reading indicated.

I just want to know it works. Most of the I don't need to know why, unless it is my responsibility to understand (or I it is my personal curious range. Mine is philosophy, and human behavior.) I drive my car. I can change oil, spark plugs, air filters...but I would rather let the guys and gals that do that do it. (My car cost too much now to fool around like I did back in the day.) I've got my own problems to work out. Mine have to do with dysfunctional, at risk, angry adolescent boys and working successfully on my own little teams. But I do remember reading that ammonia neutralizers may still read a high ammonia content although it has been neutralized--or some such thing.

And I never make fun of the folks that have been working successfully with fish for 25 or 50 years--UGF, salt , and all. They are all that! I celebrate them! They are the ones that have been patient and long suffering, the ones who civily explained endlessly and read my long post with concern and thoughtfulness, never getting out of sorts or losing interest. Yes, I celebrate them!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

I drive my car. I can change oil, spark plugs, air filters...but I would rather let the guys and gals that do that do it. celebrate them!

you can do more than me then (although my father in law is a mechanic and Ian used to be a boy racer chav so i don't really need to!)

but if you are happy that a method works for you then your right no reason to change it and only worry about how it works if it interests you.

i'm in a very awkward limbo right now, in a dead end boring as hell job and have way to much time on my hands, but i start my new job in 2 weeks and hopefully then i will have much more imporant things to think about!

 

[jollysue]

It's good to have interesting hobbies during down times. When I am off work I get all caught up in the fishy world. And ALWAYS buy new fish and tanks! haha I get many more things going than I can complete in the time I have.

Congrats on the new job!

 

[Miss Wiggle]

thanks