The Never Ending Cycle

FishForums.net Pet of the Month
🐶 POTM Poll is Open! 🦎 Click here to Vote! 🐰

jacden

New Member
Joined
May 15, 2008
Messages
48
Reaction score
0
Location
South Wales
I am in the NINTH week of a fishless cycle and it is driving me CRAZY!! ammonia has been processing in 8hrs for 5 weeks. Nitrates are up to 80+ plants are sreading like weeds, they have been pruned twice already. The nitrites just will not process in 12hrs. they are taking approx 17hrs. I have done a few waterchanges during the cycle when ph drops , kh is 40mg/l from tap, but is 20mg/l in tank. despite the low kh from the tap, ph is 8. does anyone have any idea why ph is high? What fish would be happy in this water? On Sunday i did an 80% water change, nitrites are still at 0.5ppm at the 12hr stage, nitrates 40ppm. Tank is 83 gal. with sump and trickle filters. Is there any thing i can do to move it along?
 
Im no good with kh and ph stuff sorry cant help there.

However and others may disagree, after nine weeks and ammonia processing in 8hrs nitrite in 17 I would say your ready for fish.

Unless you are planning on heavily overstocking, there is no way your fish will produce 5ppm of ammonia in 24hrs. People who have had a mature established tank for a long time, which was fully stocked and then for whatever reason have removed the fish and then added 5ppm of ammonia have experience a mini-cycle as their fish were not producing that amount of ammonia.

With the exception of some sensitive fish, most fish will adapt to the ph of the tank, aparently its easier to acclimatise a fish from a lower ph to a higher ph, whereas those that have been in a high ph do not do so well when acclimatised to a lower ph. Providing the ph is steady then you should be fine with most community fish. Of course African Cichlids would be great for this ph too. Although South American cichlids maybe not so good.

Im sure you could carry on with cycle for a few more weeks and see if the nitrites convert within 12 hours, but after so long and the water changes not helping it along, I would be inclined to add fish. But as I said, others will disagree.
 
Im no good with kh and ph stuff sorry cant help there.

However and others may disagree, after nine weeks and ammonia processing in 8hrs nitrite in 17 I would say your ready for fish.

Unless you are planning on heavily overstocking, there is no way your fish will produce 5ppm of ammonia in 24hrs. People who have had a mature established tank for a long time, which was fully stocked and then for whatever reason have removed the fish and then added 5ppm of ammonia have experience a mini-cycle as their fish were not producing that amount of ammonia.

With the exception of some sensitive fish, most fish will adapt to the ph of the tank, aparently its easier to acclimatise a fish from a lower ph to a higher ph, whereas those that have been in a high ph do not do so well when acclimatised to a lower ph. Providing the ph is steady then you should be fine with most community fish. Of course African Cichlids would be great for this ph too. Although South American cichlids maybe not so good.

Im sure you could carry on with cycle for a few more weeks and see if the nitrites convert within 12 hours, but after so long and the water changes not helping it along, I would be inclined to add fish. But as I said, others will disagree.

I think I will carry on until the weekend and if all stays the same iwill do a large water change and get about 6 danios. Do you think this is enough fish to start to maintain the cycle? then stock weekly.Thanks for the advice.
 
i think you might need about twice that number for a tank that size. dannios are only small. Miss Wiggle is a bit of an expert on this i belive.
 
i think you might need about twice that number for a tank that size. dannios are only small. Miss Wiggle is a bit of an expert on this i belive.


I think you are right. I would like to add some angels eventually and corys. maybe Miss Wiggle will see post and give her advice. Thanks for advice much appreciated,
Jackie
 
I bought an aquarium at easter...and was just able to put fish in it this past friday. Thats how long my cycle took. I had PH issues too. Tell ya what happened to finally finish it up is that I did a MASSIVE water change (think pretty much ALL of the water), topped it back up with heavily dechlorinated water, and about twice as much baking soda as I had been using. Then I left for the weekend the next day and left my neighbor to put the ammonia in. When I came back on monday...it was fully cycled and has been peachy ever since.
 
I bought an aquarium at easter...and was just able to put fish in it this past friday. Thats how long my cycle took. I had PH issues too. Tell ya what happened to finally finish it up is that I did a MASSIVE water change (think pretty much ALL of the water), topped it back up with heavily dechlorinated water, and about twice as much baking soda as I had been using. Then I left for the weekend the next day and left my neighbor to put the ammonia in. When I came back on monday...it was fully cycled and has been peachy ever since.


i think we'll call this the Lioness method......... but yeah give it a shot!


it's a decent sized tank so you can probably safley add half to two thirds of the final tanks stocking at this point. one inch of fish per gallon of water, son you're looking between 40 and 60 inches of fish for initial stocking.
 
I bought an aquarium at easter...and was just able to put fish in it this past friday. Thats how long my cycle took. I had PH issues too. Tell ya what happened to finally finish it up is that I did a MASSIVE water change (think pretty much ALL of the water), topped it back up with heavily dechlorinated water, and about twice as much baking soda as I had been using. Then I left for the weekend the next day and left my neighbor to put the ammonia in. When I came back on monday...it was fully cycled and has been peachy ever since.


i think we'll call this the Lioness method......... but yeah give it a shot!


it's a decent sized tank so you can probably safley add half to two thirds of the final tanks stocking at this point. one inch of fish per gallon of water, son you're looking between 40 and 60 inches of fish for initial stocking.



LOL Miss Wiggle...the lioness method. Spend weeks on end obsessing over every little thing, then leave for a weekend so the bacteria laugh behind your back and do their thing while your back it turned! After all those weeks....I didnt CARE how or why they laughed at me...just as long as they got busy!
 
I bought an aquarium at easter...and was just able to put fish in it this past friday. Thats how long my cycle took. I had PH issues too. Tell ya what happened to finally finish it up is that I did a MASSIVE water change (think pretty much ALL of the water), topped it back up with heavily dechlorinated water, and about twice as much baking soda as I had been using. Then I left for the weekend the next day and left my neighbor to put the ammonia in. When I came back on monday...it was fully cycled and has been peachy ever since.


i think we'll call this the Lioness method......... but yeah give it a shot!


it's a decent sized tank so you can probably safley add half to two thirds of the final tanks stocking at this point. one inch of fish per gallon of water, son you're looking between 40 and 60 inches of fish for initial stocking.

thanks for the advice miss wiggle. I am going to concentrate on which fish to get, i would like angels x4 , corysx3 or 4, and a shoal of fish dont know what, i will have to research that one , due to the angels etc. will post a list and would appreciate any advice thanks again.
Jackie



LOL Miss Wiggle...the lioness method. Spend weeks on end obsessing over every little thing, then leave for a weekend so the bacteria laugh behind your back and do their thing while your back it turned! After all those weeks....I didnt CARE how or why they laughed at me...just as long as they got busy!


Thanks lioness for the advice, it is reassuring, to know you have finally cycled your tank, hope it all goes well from now on.
Jackie
 
I bought an aquarium at easter...and was just able to put fish in it this past friday. Thats how long my cycle took. I had PH issues too. Tell ya what happened to finally finish it up is that I did a MASSIVE water change (think pretty much ALL of the water), topped it back up with heavily dechlorinated water, and about twice as much baking soda as I had been using. Then I left for the weekend the next day and left my neighbor to put the ammonia in. When I came back on monday...it was fully cycled and has been peachy ever since.


i think we'll call this the Lioness method......... but yeah give it a shot!


it's a decent sized tank so you can probably safley add half to two thirds of the final tanks stocking at this point. one inch of fish per gallon of water, son you're looking between 40 and 60 inches of fish for initial stocking.

thanks for the advice miss wiggle. I am going to concentrate on which fish to get, i would like angels x4 , corysx3 or 4, and a shoal of fish dont know what, i will have to research that one , due to the angels etc. will post a list and would appreciate any advice thanks again.
Jackie



LOL Miss Wiggle...the lioness method. Spend weeks on end obsessing over every little thing, then leave for a weekend so the bacteria laugh behind your back and do their thing while your back it turned! After all those weeks....I didnt CARE how or why they laughed at me...just as long as they got busy!


Thanks lioness for the advice, it is reassuring, to know you have finally cycled your tank, hope it all goes well from now on.
Jackie
 
I bought an aquarium at easter...and was just able to put fish in it this past friday. Thats how long my cycle took. I had PH issues too. Tell ya what happened to finally finish it up is that I did a MASSIVE water change (think pretty much ALL of the water), topped it back up with heavily dechlorinated water, and about twice as much baking soda as I had been using. Then I left for the weekend the next day and left my neighbor to put the ammonia in. When I came back on monday...it was fully cycled and has been peachy ever since.


i think we'll call this the Lioness method......... but yeah give it a shot!


it's a decent sized tank so you can probably safley add half to two thirds of the final tanks stocking at this point. one inch of fish per gallon of water, son you're looking between 40 and 60 inches of fish for initial stocking.


I have had a think about what fish to start with, glad of any advice. I thought to put in 4 small angels, 6 zebra danios , 3 corys OR 1 bristle nose plec. any other stocking ideas. Will this maintain the cycle initially,then iwill add to full stocking level slowly.

tank is 48insx 20insx 24ins deep.
KH . 40mg/l from tap but drops to 20mg/l in tank ( during cycling)
Ph. 8 from tap (has been falling during cycling)
I have Ro unit so could lower ph if needed

any advice appreciated jackie
 
I have a couple of thoughts about this for you:

Thought #1:

Your KH is extremely low and there are hints that the N-bacs don't like that. You say that your pH is 8.0 (which happens to be ideal for growing N-bacs I believe) but then you say that its been dropping during fishless cycling (would be interesting to know, dropping by how much? at about pH=6.2 you can forget about N-bacs developing and down at 5.5 the bacteria will even die off.)

You'll notice that Lioness mentioned putting -more- baking soda in her tank. Baking soda brings the KH up and the pH up. If your pH is dropping way below that 8.0, then you could safely add baking soda and bring both parameters up. If the pH is sticking up at 8.0, then less baking soda would be in order. The way to think about an initial amount of baking soda is to use the following starting point: one teaspoon of baking soda (careful that its not baking powder!) per 50 litres of tank water should raise KH about 4 german degrees (your KH must be between 1 and 3 degrees since 17.9mg/L equals one german degree) without much effect on the pH. (to repeat: add 1 teaspoon for every 50 litres of water to raise KH 4 degrees without starting to effect pH very much.)

Now the other thing happening to you is that you are in the final stages but have not been performing large water changes. Large water changes, complete with gravel cleanings can have a really good effect on this last stage. It clears out the excess nitrites and nitrates and there is some speculation that these can slow N-bac development. By removing plant debris it also lowers an extra source of ammonia that may silently be pushing your ammonia beyond the 4-5ppm that you think you have (noting that at 8ppm a different species developes and slows things down.)
(I don't really think the plant debris would push it that far though!)

After you do a large water change is the best time to add your baking soda. You do your conditioner and add both the baking soda and the ammonia and don't bother testing the water until the next morning or so, depending on when you do the water change. If you have the patience to do this, choosing an operation like this and giving it a week might just get you down to 12 hours.

Thought #2:

As you were already thinking of doing above, keeping your initial stocking level to a medium size rather than fully stocking should prove that the filter is already qualified. Note that even RDD, who wrote our fishless cycling article has said this. Once your nitrites are dropping all the way to zero in less than 24 hours, but just not as fast as 12 hours, the filter is probably ready for a lighter load of fish. That being said, there are two problems you face: if the filter proves to be weaker than you thought then you will find yourself in a fish-in cycle, having to make repeated water changes. Also, the problem that everyone faces, of which fish to start with, is made a little more urgent since you know nitrite levels may not prove optimal right away - so you might feel confident about the zebra danios, but not about the corries for instance. And its a dilemma, wanting the fish load to not be too small, causing you to lose bacteria, but not wanting to expose more expensive fish like angels to a riskier early environment. So if you decided on this path, you might try to consider whether there is some other shoal of fish that is hardy to put in in addition to the zebras to help the fish load be hardy but a bit bigger overall.

OK, that's probably more than you wanted to read (but I wanted to get my mind off work :lol: )

~~waterdrop~~
 
I have a couple of thoughts about this for you:

Thought #1:

Your KH is extremely low and there are hints that the N-bacs don't like that. You say that your pH is 8.0 (which happens to be ideal for growing N-bacs I believe) but then you say that its been dropping during fishless cycling (would be interesting to know, dropping by how much? at about pH=6.2 you can forget about N-bacs developing and down at 5.5 the bacteria will even die off.)

You'll notice that Lioness mentioned putting -more- baking soda in her tank. Baking soda brings the KH up and the pH up. If your pH is dropping way below that 8.0, then you could safely add baking soda and bring both parameters up. If the pH is sticking up at 8.0, then less baking soda would be in order. The way to think about an initial amount of baking soda is to use the following starting point: one teaspoon of baking soda (careful that its not baking powder!) per 50 litres of tank water should raise KH about 4 german degrees (your KH must be between 1 and 3 degrees since 17.9mg/L equals one german degree) without much effect on the pH. (to repeat: add 1 teaspoon for every 50 litres of water to raise KH 4 degrees without starting to effect pH very much.)

Now the other thing happening to you is that you are in the final stages but have not been performing large water changes. Large water changes, complete with gravel cleanings can have a really good effect on this last stage. It clears out the excess nitrites and nitrates and there is some speculation that these can slow N-bac development. By removing plant debris it also lowers an extra source of ammonia that may silently be pushing your ammonia beyond the 4-5ppm that you think you have (noting that at 8ppm a different species developes and slows things down.)
(I don't really think the plant debris would push it that far though!)

After you do a large water change is the best time to add your baking soda. You do your conditioner and add both the baking soda and the ammonia and don't bother testing the water until the next morning or so, depending on when you do the water change. If you have the patience to do this, choosing an operation like this and giving it a week might just get you down to 12 hours.

Thought #2:

As you were already thinking of doing above, keeping your initial stocking level to a medium size rather than fully stocking should prove that the filter is already qualified. Note that even RDD, who wrote our fishless cycling article has said this. Once your nitrites are dropping all the way to zero in less than 24 hours, but just not as fast as 12 hours, the filter is probably ready for a lighter load of fish. That being said, there are two problems you face: if the filter proves to be weaker than you thought then you will find yourself in a fish-in cycle, having to make repeated water changes. Also, the problem that everyone faces, of which fish to start with, is made a little more urgent since you know nitrite levels may not prove optimal right away - so you might feel confident about the zebra danios, but not about the corries for instance. And its a dilemma, wanting the fish load to not be too small, causing you to lose bacteria, but not wanting to expose more expensive fish like angels to a riskier early environment. So if you decided on this path, you might try to consider whether there is some other shoal of fish that is hardy to put in in addition to the zebras to help the fish load be hardy but a bit bigger overall.

OK, that's probably more than you wanted to read (but I wanted to get my mind off work :lol: )

~~waterdrop~~


Thanks for helping Waterdrop. PH has been starting at 8, then dropping over approx. 8-10 days to 7. At this point i have been doing about 50% waterchange, which raises PH to approx 8 again. I added bicarbonate of soda 4teaspoons, on one occasion as it was inconvenient to do a water change. PH dropped to 7. over 10 days. on 29th June i did a 80% water change , PH today is 7.8. I have lightly vaccumed the gravel, a few times during cycle but thought it might be detrimental to be too vigorous. Will i have to add bicarbonate of soda regularly when finally cycled to keep KH stable?
Nitrite tonight at 12hrs actually showed an improvement, between 0.25 and o.5ppm Normally it has been 1.00ppm. I think i will do a very large water change this weekend and add bicarb, resist the urge to put in fish. I have waited this long i will wait a little longer and try to get it to 0%in 12 hrs. thanks again Jackie


Do you think a shoal of 10 pristella tetras as well as danios would be ok? I think they are hardy.
 
I have a couple of thoughts about this for you:

Thought #1:

Your KH is extremely low and there are hints that the N-bacs don't like that. You say that your pH is 8.0 (which happens to be ideal for growing N-bacs I believe) but then you say that its been dropping during fishless cycling (would be interesting to know, dropping by how much? at about pH=6.2 you can forget about N-bacs developing and down at 5.5 the bacteria will even die off.)

You'll notice that Lioness mentioned putting -more- baking soda in her tank. Baking soda brings the KH up and the pH up. If your pH is dropping way below that 8.0, then you could safely add baking soda and bring both parameters up. If the pH is sticking up at 8.0, then less baking soda would be in order. The way to think about an initial amount of baking soda is to use the following starting point: one teaspoon of baking soda (careful that its not baking powder!) per 50 litres of tank water should raise KH about 4 german degrees (your KH must be between 1 and 3 degrees since 17.9mg/L equals one german degree) without much effect on the pH. (to repeat: add 1 teaspoon for every 50 litres of water to raise KH 4 degrees without starting to effect pH very much.)

Now the other thing happening to you is that you are in the final stages but have not been performing large water changes. Large water changes, complete with gravel cleanings can have a really good effect on this last stage. It clears out the excess nitrites and nitrates and there is some speculation that these can slow N-bac development. By removing plant debris it also lowers an extra source of ammonia that may silently be pushing your ammonia beyond the 4-5ppm that you think you have (noting that at 8ppm a different species developes and slows things down.)
(I don't really think the plant debris would push it that far though!)

After you do a large water change is the best time to add your baking soda. You do your conditioner and add both the baking soda and the ammonia and don't bother testing the water until the next morning or so, depending on when you do the water change. If you have the patience to do this, choosing an operation like this and giving it a week might just get you down to 12 hours.

Thought #2:

As you were already thinking of doing above, keeping your initial stocking level to a medium size rather than fully stocking should prove that the filter is already qualified. Note that even RDD, who wrote our fishless cycling article has said this. Once your nitrites are dropping all the way to zero in less than 24 hours, but just not as fast as 12 hours, the filter is probably ready for a lighter load of fish. That being said, there are two problems you face: if the filter proves to be weaker than you thought then you will find yourself in a fish-in cycle, having to make repeated water changes. Also, the problem that everyone faces, of which fish to start with, is made a little more urgent since you know nitrite levels may not prove optimal right away - so you might feel confident about the zebra danios, but not about the corries for instance. And its a dilemma, wanting the fish load to not be too small, causing you to lose bacteria, but not wanting to expose more expensive fish like angels to a riskier early environment. So if you decided on this path, you might try to consider whether there is some other shoal of fish that is hardy to put in in addition to the zebras to help the fish load be hardy but a bit bigger overall.

OK, that's probably more than you wanted to read (but I wanted to get my mind off work :lol: )

~~waterdrop~~


Thanks for helping Waterdrop. PH has been starting at 8, then dropping over approx. 8-10 days to 7. At this point i have been doing about 50% waterchange, which raises PH to approx 8 again. I added bicarbonate of soda 4teaspoons, on one occasion as it was inconvenient to do a water change. PH dropped to 7. over 10 days. on 29th June i did a 80% water change , PH today is 7.8. I have lightly vaccumed the gravel, a few times during cycle but thought it might be detrimental to be too vigorous. Will i have to add bicarbonate of soda regularly when finally cycled to keep KH stable?
Nitrite tonight at 12hrs actually showed an improvement, between 0.25 and o.5ppm Normally it has been 1.00ppm. I think i will do a very large water change this weekend and add bicarb, resist the urge to put in fish. I have waited this long i will wait a little longer and try to get it to 0%in 12 hrs. thanks again Jackie


Do you think a shoal of 10 pristella tetras as well as danios would be ok? I think they are hardy.

Are you out there Waterdrop?
 

Most reactions

trending

Staff online

Members online

Back
Top