Struggling To Get My Nitrates And Ammonia Down

[nikkidabicky]

I am really struggling with what is right for my tank i have had this tank for 3 weeks and have been fish cycling however the people i spoke to where i got my fish from seem to have given me bad advice i changed my water after 2 weeks and then one of my fish died after i had done it, i retested my water and my ammonia and nitrate was to high.

the people i spoke to told me to vac the stones and to get 6 fish or so but now been readin different forums looks like they have done it from a sales point of view not a keepers point of view.

can anyone help me because i dont want to loose anymore fish -- is there a way to get both nitrate and ammonia down after changing the water?

 

[greenscooby]

I got caught in a fish-in cycle, and it's not very nice,

The bad news is you are up for a load of water changes, up to 3x50% changes PER DAY,

If you continue to fish-in cycle the only way to get Ammonia and NitrITE down is by water changes, after you do your first 50% change wait 15 minutes and do another test, if they're still too high, do another one.

What are you using for your tests? Strips or Liquid?

If you know anyone with some mature media you could ask for a amall amount and put it in your filter this will help speed the process up.

Or if your that concerned it may be worth returning your fish to your LFS and doing a fish-less cycle you may not get anything for them and they may not take them back, but thats an option.

Mark.

 

[nikkidabicky]

im using liquids, iv only done one water change since i started it thats what the guy at the fish shop told me to do not happy that they have given me fish knowing it hasnt been set uup long humph!!

if i change my water everyday would that then give them a fighting chance i doubt they will take them back just because they dont know what condition they will be in i do recall them saying summit like that when i 1st got them

i hav got guppies left now it was a small catfish that died they didnt warn me that they were sensitive i did say i wanted information on what fish to use and they said any were fine etc but obviously not i dont know what to trust now with their judgement

what is it that causes all the nitrates and ammonia is it jst from the food and fish deposits?

 

[greenscooby]

Not 100% on the chemistry side of things but your ammonia is from the fish waste and uneaten food, that much i do know, oldman47 would be the best person to explain the chemistry side of things.

You should ALWAYS do weekly maintenence(spelling?) approx 30% with a gravel vac as well, this will remove any excess waste which falls into the gravel.

If you keep up with the water changes then yes you've got a fighting chance, BUT for the next 5 - 6 weeks your up for LOADS of LARGE water changes, like i said earlier up to 3x50% water changes per day, it's hard work but very very rewarding in the end, trust me, I'VE DONE IT.

Your LFS should NEVER have sold you a catfish they need a mature tank at least 5 - 6 months after the tank has been cycled as they feed of algae, but their diet must also be supplemented with other foods as well, i use catfish pellets, algae wafers, blanched courgette and blanched cucumber.

Also Guppies need a mature tank to go into, at least 5 - 6 months mature.

IMO i wouldn't go back to that particular LFS i'd try and find another one, there are plenty of people on here who will give you all the advice you could ever want, check on here before you buy and you'll get the right advice.

Hope this helps,

Mark.

 

[pippoodle]

go here hun and read the posts on cycling

http/www.fishforums.net/index.php?showtopic=277264

 

[nikkidabicky]

thanks ever so much for ur help xx

 

[greenscooby]

I've just sent a message to fatheadminnow, hopefully he'll be able to help you a lot more than i can can,

Good luck with it all

Mark.

 

[fatheadminnow]

Hello there nikkidabicky!

Yes, some very good advice from greenscooby!

I was in the same boat you were when I started out, not knowing anything about cycling a tank, and like greenscooby said, you are in for a lot of water changes if you do decide to keep the fish and do a fish-ion cycle!

But that is why we are here to help you get through this!

First off, I need some clarification. You said that ammonia and nitrAte are high? Are you sure it is the NitrAte that is high or do you mean the NitrItes are high?

Please let me know that, and I will be able to help you out!

-FHM

 

[fatheadminnow]

Well I see that you are off line now and probably wont be back until the morning, and unfortunately, due to the difference in the time zone I will be off line and in bed when you get up. So I will try to give you some advice on what to do until I get back on tomorrow.

Ammonia is produced by your fishes waste, and by other things such as left over food in the tank and dead fish in the tank. Whatever the case may be, there is always going to be ammonia present in your tank when you have fish. However, with an established tank, the ammonia and NitrIte are going to be so low that our test kits will read zero.

When ammonia is present in our tanks, beneficial bacteria (Autotrophic bacteria) colonize in our filters to process the ammonia.

1. First, the beneficial bacteria will process ammonia, when ammonia is process by these bacteria is turns into NitrIte.

2. There is a second type of Autotrophic bacteria in our filters that will process nitrIte into NitrAte.

3. There is no bacteria in our filter that can process NitrAte, so the only way to take NitrAte out is by water changes, usually only a 10%-15% water change is needed once a week to get NitrAte down.

Another thing that you need to know is: Ammonia and NitrIte are toxic to fish if they are above .25 ppm when you take your water readings. The fish may not show signs right away. But if they are exposed to a high level of Ammonia and NitrIte for too long, this could shorten their lives, and give them gill damage.

NitrAte is also toxic to fish, but in a greater quantity. Fish will be okay in NitrAte readings up to 40-50 ppm.

In you case, a fish-in cycle, your MAIN PRIORITY is to keep the Ammonia and NitrIte as close to zero as possible, this is done by water changes. Like stated above, do a water change, than check like 25 minutes later to see where you are at, and based on that reading you will know to do another water change or not.

-Simple math is all that is needed: If you take an Ammonia reading, and it says that you have 5 ppm in your tank, you know that you need to perform a water change to get this down below .25 ppm. So, lets say that you do a 50% water change. A 50% water change is going to take 5 ppm down to 2.5 ppm. 50% is half, so half of 5 ppm is 2.5 ppm. This "math" method will work for Ammonia, NitrIte and NitrAte.

Over the course of weeks, you will notice that your Ammonia and NitrIte readings are not go to be as high as often, and this is due to the fact that the beneficial bacteria are starting to colonize to process them.

So what can I expect first?

-First you are going to see a rise in Ammonia, since there are no bacteria to process this yet. But once bacteria start to colonize in your filter that process ammonia, you will notice that your ammonia is not going to be that high all the time, and then your NitrIte is going to start to go up.

Then, you will notice that your Ammonia is at zero almost all the time now, and your nitrIte is high.

You will then start to see your NitrIte go down and then you will see your NitrAtes go up.

After "X" amount of weeks, your Ammonia and NitrItes are going to be at zero, and your NitrAte is going to go up. This is due to the Beneficial bacteria in your filter that you have colonized over this whole process.

Things to remember:

You should use a gravel vac at least once a week, if not more, to suck up any poo. Poo that is left over in the tank is going to produce more ammonia, and that is the last thing you want right now.

You want Ammonia and NitrIte down below .25 ppm, and NitrAte not to go over 40-50 ppm
.
The only way to get Ammonia and NitrIte down is to do water changes, until there is enough bacteria in your filter to take care of this for you.

There is no bacteria that will process NitrAte, so you must perform weekly 10%-15% water changes to get NitrAte down, after the cycle is complete.

I hope this helps a little?

I will be back on in the morning, not sure what time for you, to help you out more with this problem.

But I hope after reading this that you will have a basic understanding on how this process works, and what to do.

Thanks for pointing this thread out to me greenscooby! As I would probably not have seen it if you did not.

Regards
-FHM

 

[waterdrop]

Excellent write-up from FHM there.. just thowing in my comment that I agree with all of it.

Its a good habit to -always- consider gravel cleaning to just be the way that water changes are done. Even if you're having to do more than one water change a day, using the cylinder and stirring the gravel is the thing to be doing when the water is going out. As long as you don't uncover your filter intake, there's usually nothing wrong with leaving your filter running during a water change.

As far as your feelings about the LFS, I know its quite upsetting once you realize how "off" the advice is. But in my experience, once you've found a good forum like this its best to switch to taking your advice here and just consider the advantages of a local fish shop to be that you can get fish and a few supplies and sometimes plants without having to order them and have them shipped. So in the long run it turns out to be best to just smile, keep up an ok relationship with them, but to be not ever taking any real advice unless you just consider it a comment to be checked out here amongst the members!

A fish-in cycle takes on average about a month. You know its about over when you can go two full days with zero readings for both ammonia and nitrite(NO2) and not have changed any water during those 2 days. Then you just keep testing twice a day for another week to confirm and if all goes ok you can consider your fish-in cycle to be over.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[OldMan47]

The only thing that I can add to what WD and FHM have already said is to avoid adding any fish until the tank has finished cycling. Every fish you add means that much more waste which means that much more water changes. Feed very lightly compared to what you might like to because if the food doesn't go in, the waste doesn't come out. If you have any live plants, they will help by using ammonia and nitrates as plant food but be aware that a decaying plant leaf will produce ammonia as fast as decaying food. Plants are a mixed blessing for that reason among others. I am not as brilliant as people seem to think on here but I do come along with a dose of common sense from time to time.