Serious Filter Recommendation Required

[bitteraspects]

Proper fish keeping is a full time job. Maybe more so then our full time jobs. Lol

 

[rabbut]

LOL, tut tut, don't get caught. Most places are looking to shed staff ATM, and being caught on here may give them the reason so yer, back to work

 

[three-fingers]

So...for anyone wondering, Hagen don't make Eheims .

In the US, the Tetratec filters are branded Marineland, but I have no idea if they are made in the same way.

Very interesting about the HOB's media capacity, thanks very much for providing those pics. To import one to here would not be worth it though, so I wonder if this comparison applies to the Azoo and Eheim HOB's available here...they are much cheaper than canisters, though still not available at most LFS.

One issue with the HOB's is that it doesn't look like they will fit on to the most common medium-large sized tanks sold here (which usually have a wide rim on the top of them, giving the tank extra support against bowing).

I'm also not really keen on the water fall effect that they have, but that's a minor issue.

What kind of hoods do tanks with HOB's have btw?

When it comes to the smaller HOB's, of which the Azoo ones are relativity common here compared to any other HOB, I really think internals are move effective at bio and mechanical filtration- especially those new Fluval U internals. Although HOB's provide much better value for money.

 

[bitteraspects]

LOL, tut tut, don't get caught. Most places are looking to shed staff ATM, and being caught on here may give them the reason so yer, back to work

Luckily I'm in a position where I can not be fired.

 

[rabbut]

^^ Alright for some

 

[george4]

I really was unaware that lurication was so important for a filter thats only 6 months old , but i will certainly do this in future. Can i ask exactly what should be used ,, is vasaline out of a tub okay , wont this harm fish ?

 

[rabbut]

Vaseline is what I use, but for genuine rubber it will caurse issues. For the Tetratec, Vaseline is recomended. Fluvals will require propper O-ring grease, as they use propper rubber, though Vaseline will increase a Fluval seals life by a bit

 

[saltynay]

For the record I followed bit didn't listen

 

[bitteraspects]

I really was unaware that lurication was so important for a filter thats only 6 months old , but i will certainly do this in future. Can i ask exactly what should be used ,, is vasaline out of a tub okay , wont this harm fish ?

you shoudnt need to after only 6mo.

 

[bitteraspects]

So...for anyone wondering, Hagen don't make Eheims .

actually, as i already covered that point, i dont think anyone but you was wondering. and as you apparently read what i wrote, im left but to assume your ability to retain information is very limited. ill try to keep the words small and syllables short for you.

Very interesting about the HOB's media capacity, thanks very much for providing those pics. To import one to here would not be worth it though, so I wonder if this comparison applies to the Azoo and Eheim HOB's available here...they are much cheaper than canisters, though still not available at most LFS.

id have to look at the design, but this doesnt work on any other filters in the US. unlike most HOB filters, the aquaclear design pushes the water in the filterup through the bottom of the media, the same way a canister does, and out the top, rather then most other designs that only push the water from back to front, and through those premade cartridges.

One issue with the HOB's is that it doesn't look like they will fit on to the most common medium-large sized tanks sold here (which usually have a wide rim on the top of them, giving the tank extra support against bowing).

the canister allows the filter to mount on a rim up to 1.5". im not sure how wide the rim is on the tanks there, but the widest ive seen with a big decorative rim was only about 1"

I'm also not really keen on the water fall effect that they have, but that's a minor issue.

the system works, but like every other system, there are some flaws that can be easily remedied by a $5 diy

What kind of hoods do tanks with HOB's have btw?

the standard is plastic lids made by either marineland (tetra tec), or allglass. or a 2 piece glass canopy.

 

[bitteraspects]

welcome back kids. time for another installment of professor aspects' journey into filtration.
if youre just joining us, when we last left off we were speaking with professor rabbut about the contrasts and comparisons regarding HOB (or hang on back) power filters, and canisters (or "exturnals").
lets continue.
*special note. apparently there were too many quotes for this episode, so this will be a 2 parter*

As a thought, Tetratec's aren't available in the US, so how's Bitteraspects got hold of one to access the build quality??

tetra tec is made by marineland. for example. the ex sreies cans are marineland c series here. and in response to an earlier post, they are made the same. just labled differently. (not sure why exactly)

[

Lubrication the seal is an essential part of the maintanance of any filter that is of a canister type. If you don't lubricate it, the canister won't last that long due to a seal failure...

Let me explain;

Rubber (synthetic or otherwise) hardens with constant contact with water. Applying loob stops the seal being in contact with water and hence stops it hardening. This in turn stops it "chapping" or worse still in the case of Fluvals usualy when their seals go, snapping.

this can be true, however you shouldnt have to do any of that in the first 6mo of owning the filter. how can you stand behind a filter that routinely breaks every 6mo? i have filters that have been running close to 10 years, and have only replaced the o-rings once.
guess thats another point for aqua clear over tetra tec.

Work buys direct from Hagen UK. They cannot get aquaclear HOB's. They appear as though they are not part of the UK product line for Hagen. If you cannot get the filters themselves, I'm fairly shure you won't get the parts through them either (though I haven't checked that), so all spares/repairs would have to be done via the states or one of the few LFS's here that have imported the parts already

all the products are made by hagen, so its safe to assume that you can get them through hagen uk. have you actually tried, or are you just assuming? im guessing the second. im more then certain the manufacturers have the means to ship to their own company.
however, for the sake of arguement, lets say hagen has a no fly zone between the us manufacturing plant and the UK. there are other means. places like ebay will have them readily available for a really cheap price, (also, second hand available as well), and because they weigh next to nothing, shipping wil be pretty cheap.

While you don't say they are out and out rubbish, you imply that they are un-reliable (stating they won't out-live your fish) and that they aren't performing as well as a comparable filter. Not so in my experience. If you maintain the seal well on a Rena, it should give good reliable service (though I was rather lax about that point on my first Rena...)

hahahah. i said no such thing.

As for hob filters. Ime there is none better then the aquaclear110 (formerly called the aquaclear500). After using many filters including tetratech, marineland, rena, resun, and many other hob filters, I have never looked back once I tried hagens aquaclear system. Not only is it superior in both mechanical and biological filtration, as well as many other key points I'd be glad to share with you later if you're interested (for the sake of keeping this short), but these filters will potentially outlive your fish. I have many of these running personally, the longest of which, has been running for 8 years and counting. While I thought this number was pretty impressive, especially considering I only had to replace the filter media once in this period, I have spoken to people have had their aquaclear500's running for 15 and up to 20 years.

the statement was only that i have tried their filters and found something much better, and never went back. the statement about how long they last was an added point further validating my choice of the aquaclear system over the aforementioned. i never said anything about how long any of the other filters last, only my personal knowledge about the longevity of the aquaclear system.

I would prefur some reliability from my equipment. I note the adverage life span of a Fluval canister from the 04 series is about 4-5 years (a few of the origionals are still going though...), and now the 05's are getting old by Fluvals standords (about 3-4 years), we are again seeing failures cropping up... Obviously the FX5 hasn't been on the market long enough to judge reliability, but if past performance from Fluval filters is anything to go by, it may be a bit of a dissapointment. Mind, at £90, for the size of filter, it's essentially a "Disposable" when compaired to competing products at just over twice that...

Eheim classics are my usual example. Many people that bought the first lot of them 30 years ago still either run them, have upgraded them with their tank or died/lost interest in the hobby before they failed... Similarly with the Pro lines, there are some running 15 year old ones...

how can you go on about reliability, but justify geting a filter that the o-rings go out after 6mo?
also, as you said...

the FX5 hasn't been on the market long enough to judge reliability

, so maybe get back to me in 10 years, and we can retouch on this subject.
while i will vouch for the reliability of the old eheim classics, not many other filters have met that mark. none that i can think of off hand. however, the fluval 205 you are so quick to bash on, is knnown to last 10years+ .
as far as todays filters are concerned, 5 years is not a bad run before needing servicing, considering they are quite a bit more intricate then the classics. with built in wet/dry, heaters, UV systems, self priming, upgraded internals, and all other sorts of bells and whistle, there are quite a bit more pieces functioning and ultimately more pieces to fail. this is true for lots of things outside the aquarium world as well. theyre just signs of the times. im sure if it was nothing more then a pump and 2 hoses in a plastic bucket, it would last quite a bit longer, but these days even the novice hobbyist is looking for more then that.

the FX5 hasn't been on the market long enough to judge reliability
I am under no doubt that the FX5 offers good performance out of the box. Personally though, I would perfur a good bio filter over a good mech one. Bio filters keep our fish alive, mech is just for asthetics. I put keeping the fish alive before making the tank look good...

i hope you really didnt mean that. lol. between the toxins released into the water by fish waste and the effect of dissolved waste on water parameters and PH, the mechanical filter is just as, if not more important then the bio filtration.
even on a mech specific filtration system (whatever that means to you), beneficial bacteria will grow on the filter media as well as in the substrate. no doubt some systems will provide additional and superior bio-filtration, but the fx5 definitely provides sufficient bio filtration for the nitrogen cycle.

...TO BE CONTINUED after this commercial break


*fad out, go to commercial with a catch jingle*

 

[bitteraspects]

and were back...

didnt that cereal look delicious, kids? mmm mmm.
im definitely going to get myself a box after the show.

now, if youre just joining us, we were in the middle of a discussion with professor rabbut about filtration. lets continue.

Hum, faulty Physics... Lets get into the gritty details;

Mechanical filteration. It isn't as cut and dry as more flow = better mech filtration. Flow patterns and other factors play a part also It is my experience with HOB skimmers in marine tanks that HOB's move water mainly in their local vecinity due to the "waterfall" outlet. They do not realy stir the water near the substrate or create a massive current in the tank. Apply to these flow patters some dirt and change a skimmer to a propper filter. Now, what goes on? Well, the localised flow pattern will prevent the pic-up of dirt from within the whole tank, but localised dirt removal will be outstanding. In areas not local to the HOB though the dirt would prefur to settle in the substrate to staying in suspention and being removed. This leads to not as much being pulled by the filter and more settling in the substrate Granted, the greater flow throughput in the HOB will go some what to making up for it, but will it surpass an Exturnal? I can't see how it can, as it's just cleaning in it's direct vecinity, not the whole tank

now, you have touched on a key point here, and one that i always stress with hob filters. this is the major flaw in the hob design. while the ac110 is ABSOLUTELY able to remove as much or more debris because of the high flow rate, and will pull waste from the opposite side of the tank (definitely not all, as you mentioned, if it is a larger tank... unless you have 2 hob filters ), it definitely has a reduced cycle area because of the design. this is easily remedied a few ways.

- the most common, run 2 HOB filters. this is common practice here.
so say for example, you had a 90g tank. rather then run an ac110, you could run 2 ac50's, the price would be about the same, and would have the same combined power, (possibly a little more).

- my personal favorite... DIY. for about $5 in pieces from the hardware store, (actually less then that), you can relocate the intake pipe to the opposite side of the tank, and create a larger cycle area. this combined with the high flowrate of the ac110, will keep the tank sparkling. (ill post up a diy thread after im done here, and edit this post to add a link)
*edited LINK HERE

- adding a powerhead. by adding a small powerhead, which is also common and relatively cheap, you can put it on the opposite side of the tank and use that to blow detrius to the intake of the power filter.

Biological Filtration Again, isn't as cut and dry as more flow = better filtration. Granted, there is the same ammount of media in each filter, so that's one variable left out, along with the ability ot use the same media in each making surface area for bacterial colonies the same.

Now lets look at those that remain. Tank turn-over, surface area of the media area and contact time and how they affect efficiency.

Greater tank turn-over means the ammonia and other items for removal get to the media quicker, so if this was the only thing alone being taken into account, yes bio-filtration would be helped, but in this case it's counter productve. Why? See below;

Visually, the media looks to have the same surface area in the containers. This means it will clogg (in therory, your mileage may vary) just as quickly as the canister. Stale mate here for mech again, but this makes no difference to performance across the two assuming the below point shows the same for each;

The fact that flow through the media has increased without increasing surface area, means that you have reduced contact time, which is arguably the most important aspect of Bio-filtration, and is at least as important as actual media surface area (not volume or media container surface area). Reduced contact time means implicitly that you have less time with the water being filtered through the media on each pass, so less time for the bacteria to "grab" that poison and remove it. This is a reduction in efficiency. Canister wins here, it's increased contact time for the media volume means greater efficincy, so more muck is removed per pass. The HOB has to make more passes through the media to remove the same ammount of toxin from the water, due to it's increased flow rate

i covered a lot of this earlier.
surface area is the same in both so that was another moot point. however, in response to your comment about flow rate, you are somewhat correct. i dont know about it being the most importan aspect of bio filtration, but it is important.

flow rate and aeration play important roles in bacterial growth and ammonia conversion accordingly, however while a higher flowrate will slow the process due to a lower contact time with the beneficial bacteria in the filter media, it is not detrimental to bacteria growth or function.
With that said, the eheim canister above also has a built in wet dry chamber which allows for more oxygen to the media further speeding up and aiding bacteria function. So by no means are the two the same in that regard. However, this is one of the more advanced systems you can get, and was only used in comparison because I had a couple of them handy. A base model canister will not have these functions, and will generally have a higher flow rate then the aforementioned wet/dry system. While still not enough to match the mechanical powerhouse that is the ac110, it will, as you put it, "impede contact time, and so reduce biofiltration".
Both systems have their place in the world of filtration. This writeup was designed to hilight the awesomeness of the aqua clear system for those who weren't familiar with it, not to discredit the eheim canister. Both are amazing systems, otherwise I wouldnt own them.


... And yes, I'm aware awesomeness is not a real word. Lol. But it fits I think.

a slower flowrate is absolutely better for bacteria function. and as you stated, a higher flow rate does mean lower contact time with the media and ultimately less time to feed the bacteria, but as it also cycles the tank twice as many times due to the higher flow rate, the bacteria has plenty of contact with the ammonia in the tank.
it is true that the canister will remove more per pass, theres no denying that... however even if the hob does half as much per pass as the canister, it passes twice as often, thus squaring them away.
also, as mentioned in the above quote about the eheim canister i used for the contrast, there are systems that have even further advancements towards biofiltration. so in the end, it really comes down to the individual canister. while my eheim 2227/2229 provides an almost annoying and staggering amount of biofiltration, most of the older models (like the classic 2215) are a lot more basic.



So, to summarise

Mech = HOB
Bio = still open for debate
Price = HOB wins

out preforms, and its cheaper... the choice is clear... AQUA clear



*whew. anyone else need a break after that.

 

[rabbut]

Lubrication the seal is an essential part of the maintanance of any filter that is of a canister type. If you don't lubricate it, the canister won't last that long due to a seal failure...

Let me explain;

Rubber (synthetic or otherwise) hardens with constant contact with water. Applying loob stops the seal being in contact with water and hence stops it hardening. This in turn stops it "chapping" or worse still in the case of Fluvals usualy when their seals go, snapping.

this can be true, however you shouldnt have to do any of that in the first 6mo of owning the filter. how can you stand behind a filter that routinely breaks every 6mo? i have filters that have been running close to 10 years, and have only replaced the o-rings once.
guess thats another point for aqua clear over tetra tec.

While I cannot comment on the Aquaclear, the Fluval cans are just as bad as TT's for seals going if not loobed. Once loobed, the seal is fine untill the next clean-out (6 months in the case of a TT on an appropriate tank IME), as the loob don't get rubbed off in usual use Open and close it a few times and it does get rubbed off, and hence needs re-placing on each clean. You cannot supply a seal pre-loobed, as the loob will just rub off in the box. As an Eheim owner, I'm sure you noticed the little pot of loob in the box and followed the directions to apply it to your seal ring before final assembley and putting the filter into action In short, loob the seal every clean-out and it won't "routienly break every 6 months" as you claim

all the products are made by hagen, so its safe to assume that you can get them through hagen uk. have you actually tried, or are you just assuming? im guessing the second. im more then certain the manufacturers have the means to ship to their own company.
however, for the sake of arguement, lets say hagen has a no fly zone between the us manufacturing plant and the UK. there are other means. places like ebay will have them readily available for a really cheap price, (also, second hand available as well), and because they weigh next to nothing, shipping wil be pretty cheap.

True, they will be cheap to import However, the filter is not on the order sheet, and we always get told that they don't stock what isn't on the order sheet, so apparently Hagen UK cannot get things from Hagen US

While you don't say they are out and out rubbish, you imply that they are un-reliable (stating they won't out-live your fish) and that they aren't performing as well as a comparable filter. Not so in my experience. If you maintain the seal well on a Rena, it should give good reliable service (though I was rather lax about that point on my first Rena...)

hahahah. i said no such thing.

As for hob filters. Ime there is none better then the aquaclear110 (formerly called the aquaclear500). After using many filters including tetratech, marineland, rena, resun, and many other hob filters, I have never looked back once I tried hagens aquaclear system. Not only is it superior in both mechanical and biological filtration, as well as many other key points I'd be glad to share with you later if you're interested (for the sake of keeping this short), but these filters will potentially outlive your fish. I have many of these running personally, the longest of which, has been running for 8 years and counting. While I thought this number was pretty impressive, especially considering I only had to replace the filter media once in this period, I have spoken to people have had their aquaclear500's running for 15 and up to 20 years.

the statement was only that i have tried their filters and found something much better, and never went back. the statement about how long they last was an added point further validating my choice of the aquaclear system over the aforementioned. i never said anything about how long any of the other filters last, only my personal knowledge about the longevity of the aquaclear system.

Blolded section does seem to imply the comment I made about you not thinking them reliable IMO....

while i will vouch for the reliability of the old eheim classics, not many other filters have met that mark. none that i can think of off hand. however, the fluval 205 you are so quick to bash on, is knnown to last 10years+ .
as far as todays filters are concerned, 5 years is not a bad run before needing servicing, considering they are quite a bit more intricate then the classics. with built in wet/dry, heaters, UV systems, self priming, upgraded internals, and all other sorts of bells and whistle, there are quite a bit more pieces functioning and ultimately more pieces to fail. this is true for lots of things outside the aquarium world as well. theyre just signs of the times. im sure if it was nothing more then a pump and 2 hoses in a plastic bucket, it would last quite a bit longer, but these days even the novice hobbyist is looking for more then that.

How can a 205 be running for 10 years without issues, when they have only been on the market about 3-4 years now? For arguments sake though, I'll assume a typo and that you are refuring to a 204 Mine (404) lasted 6 months before the motor unit cattostrophically failed. I bought second hand though, but it was from a well repected member on here whom looks after her filters well. It was apparently just over a year old when I bought it from then also... 18 months isn't exactly an old filter is it? I know of one person on here with a working 04 filter still. There have been about 15-20 people posting about them failing... One of my mates has had a 404, bought brand new, fail also at 3 years old

i hope you really didnt mean that. lol. between the toxins released into the water by fish waste and the effect of dissolved waste on water parameters and PH, the mechanical filter is just as, if not more important then the bio filtration.
even on a mech specific filtration system (whatever that means to you), beneficial bacteria will grow on the filter media as well as in the substrate. no doubt some systems will provide additional and superior bio-filtration, but the fx5 definitely provides sufficient bio filtration for the nitrogen cycle.

Well a mech filter does not remove the dirt by itself does it? It's still in the system, just in the filter media. It will still leach out the mank untill removed, 6 months later in the case of a canister when you clean it, so yes, IMO mech is just asthetic unless you are cleaning your filter on an exteramly regular bases

a slower flowrate is absolutely better for bacteria function. and as you stated, a higher flow rate does mean lower contact time with the media and ultimately less time to feed the bacteria, but as it also cycles the tank twice as many times due to the higher flow rate, the bacteria has plenty of contact with the ammonia in the tank.
it is true that the canister will remove more per pass, theres no denying that... however even if the hob does half as much per pass as the canister, it passes twice as often, thus squaring them away.

Right, well, removing half as much over twice as many passes, lets look at this in detail. For simplicity's sake, lets assume the canisters is just managing to remove it all in one pass, so the HOB is removing half.

Can at 1 turnovers per hour, 100% removed per pass

on first pass; 100% removed

HOB at 2 turnovers per hour, 50% removed per pass

on first pass; 50% removed
on second pass; 75% removed (50% of 50% = 25%, so 25% of the origional was removed second pass, making 75% in total )

So, to summarise

Mech = Pepends if we are being fair and modifying both
Bio = Canister wins
Price = HOB wins

Since we are still debating Mech, lets look at it again to see why it's still debatable. You have to modify the filter or double up or install a powerhead as you say. You can do this with the can and improve it's mech filtration also. If you placed the spraybar of the can directly above the substrate so it kicked all the much up into the water colum, and modifyed your HOB to take water from the opposit end of the tank, you would likely find the can out-performs the HOB still, as the can still has the better circulation pattern in the tank

I think, with the length of our post getting so large, we should mebe focus on the HOB vs Can for now, and come back to Hagen vs Tetratec when the fundamentals of filtration are sorted Or visa versa as you prefur?

Hope you enjoyed reading professor
Rabbut

 

[bitteraspects]

While I cannot comment on the Aquaclear, the Fluval cans are just as bad as TT's for seals going if not loobed. Once loobed, the seal is fine untill the next clean-out (6 months in the case of a TT on an appropriate tank IME), as the loob don't get rubbed off in usual use Open and close it a few times and it does get rubbed off, and hence needs re-placing on each clean. You cannot supply a seal pre-loobed, as the loob will just rub off in the box. As an Eheim owner, I'm sure you noticed the little pot of loob in the box and followed the directions to apply it to your seal ring before final assembley and putting the filter into action In short, loob the seal every clean-out and it won't "routienly break every 6 months" as you claim

this is not the case with tetratec. it comes with no such bottle of lube(not loob), at least here they sure dont.
also, are you now comparing the TT filter to the fluval you continue to bash on?
sounds like a good message to the OP. "the tetea tec filter is as much of a piece of crap as a fluval filter. you should keep it"
bahahahahhaha

True, they will be cheap to import However, the filter is not on the order sheet, and we always get told that they don't stock what isn't on the order sheet, so apparently Hagen UK cannot get things from Hagen US

looks like there is a no fly zone. i spoke to a hagen uk rep this morning (its only 4:30am here) and was told that they do not carry the aquaclear line. when i asked why, he couldnt give me a straight answer... sounds fishey.
but as i mentioned. there are other ways to aquire the system, and for much cheaper. but youd really have to be interested in trying the system to go that far imo

Blolded section does seem to imply the comment I made about you not thinking them reliable IMO....

then you either dont know how to read, or your reading comprehension is poor. im not sure which, but either way, this has been explained to you numerous times now.

How can a 205 be running for 10 years without issues, when they have only been on the market about 3-4 years now? For arguments sake though, I'll assume a typo and that you are refuring to a 204 Mine (404) lasted 6 months before the motor unit cattostrophically failed. I bought second hand though, but it was from a well repected member on here whom looks after her filters well. It was apparently just over a year old when I bought it from then also... 18 months isn't exactly an old filter is it? I know of one person on here with a working 04 filter still. There have been about 15-20 people posting about them failing... One of my mates has had a 404, bought brand new, fail also at 3 years old

sorry, it was a typo. it was the 203 i was referring to
also, when buying a filter second hand there is more to worry about then simply how long it was in operation. without having actually been there, you have no idea what kind of condition the filter is truly in. its admirable that you believe this "respected member" has taken care of the filter as it should have been, and may well have, but you can never be sure when buying second hand.

Well a mech filter does not remove the dirt by itself does it? It's still in the system, just in the filter media. It will still leach out the mank untill removed, 6 months later in the case of a canister when you clean it, so yes, IMO mech is just asthetic unless you are cleaning your filter on an exteramly regular bases

BAHAHAHAHAH
are you saying you dont clean your filters? or only every 6 mo?
BAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA
again, i hope youre not serious
i dont even think this needs to be readdressed.

Right, well, removing half as much over twice as many passes, lets look at this in detail. For simplicity's sake, lets assume the canisters is just managing to remove it all in one pass, so the HOB is removing half.

Can at 1 turnovers per hour, 100% removed per pass

on first pass; 100% removed

HOB at 2 turnovers per hour, 50% removed per pass

on first pass; 50% removed
on second pass; 75% removed (50% of 50% = 25%, so 25% of the origional was removed second pass, making 75% in total )

i think you need to check your math again. 50% + 50% = 100% here in the US. the second pass would be the same amount as the first pass. not 50% of the ammonia in the filter, rather 50% of the ammonia in the tank. thus, 2 passes doing the same as 1 of the canister.

So, to summarise

Mech = HOB, without a doubt.
Bio = depends on the system (while a tetratech will not do the same as an aquaclear. the same goes for basic canisters vs. updated ones)
Price = HOB wins

Since we are still debating Mech, lets look at it again to see why it's still debatable. You have to modify the filter or double up or install a powerhead as you say. You can do this with the can and improve it's mech filtration also. If you placed the spraybar of the can directly above the substrate so it kicked all the much up into the water colum, and modifyed your HOB to take water from the opposit end of the tank, you would likely find the can out-performs the HOB still, as the can still has the better circulation pattern in the tank

this would be true if modifying it, or adding the powerhead, was necessary. however it isnt. as mentioned after your first post in this thread, modification is an additional option to further increase performance, but is not necessary out of the box. with the HOB putting out double the flowrate of the can (maybe more depending on the canister), it is absolutely doing a better job of mech filtration. even with a canister, there will be dead spots in the tank where debris settles to the bottom, unfortunately, unlike the HOB mentioned, it does not have the additional sucking power to make up for those dead spots. so, no, the can does not provide anywhere close to the amount of mechanical filtration as the HOB.

 

[three-fingers]

actually, as i already covered that point, i dont think anyone but you was wondering. and as you apparently read what i wrote, im left but to assume your ability to retain information is very limited. ill try to keep the words small and syllables short for you.

Haha, probably not then . I actually read the end of that 'paragraph', but missed the first part.
On a serious note, more extensive punctuation may have helped, small posts are fine, but decent lengthy informative ones are just annoying to read. You love picking out grammar and...why not punctuation?

id have to look at the design, but this doesnt work on any other filters in the US. unlike most HOB filters, the aquaclear design pushes the water in the filterup through the bottom of the media, the same way a canister does, and out the top, rather then most other designs that only push the water from back to front, and through those premade cartridges.

The Azoo ones don't from the ones I've seen, Eheim ones might, but only seen them in the box so not sure...
This, other than reliability, will be why everyone raves about Aquaclears being so good.

the canister allows the filter to mount on a rim up to 1.5". im not sure how wide the rim is on the tanks there, but the widest ive seen with a big decorative rim was only about 1"

That's good, typically 1-1.5" is what most seem to have.

the standard is plastic lids made by either marineland (tetra tec), or allglass. or a 2 piece glass canopy.

So there's like a cut out space for them?

Gotta wonder...why haven't they taken off over here?

BAHAHAHAHAH
are you saying you dont clean your filters? or only every 6 mo?
BAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA
again, i hope youre not serious
i dont even think this needs to be readdressed.

Because the end result will be like the water change thread . Remember...different tanks produce different amounts of waste, different filters have different surface areas of media, and different media set ups require less cleaning.

Never read past that far yet. While it's probably entertaining, a certain somebodies posts are a bit too tedious and rude to read. Will probs get onto it later tonight though .