Second Stage Cycle Started Today Help

[rabbut]

HUM, Waterdrop asked me to drop in and look at his nitrate "hanging arround" theory in another thread... Wansn't quite what I was expecting...

Substarte can consume nitrate, as is well documented in the marine hobby and hence why DSB filters work, but power filters should increase it...

The substrate will consume nitrate, as it doen't usualy have good flow through it unless you are using an Under Gravel Filter (UGF) and hence anairobic (low oxygen) pockets form. In these pockets, anairobic bacteria form, that convert any avaiable nitrate to nitrogen gas and oxygen for energy This can happen in freshwater, but for some reason, members on here seem reather paranoid about it happening, stating that if it does the tank will crash. Not so IME I accutually alow it to go on undisterbed in tanks that have sand substrates, as dirt cannot accumulate in it and drag my pH down, but gravel should be cleaned, as the build up of rotting rubbish will have the effects that members here state crash the tank occur on it...

Anairobic bacteria give off hydrogen sufide as a by-product. This gas is highly toxic, but lukily very unstable. As soon as it comes into contact with oxygen, it oxidises into a harmless form (the chemical name I cannot remember now) If your fish are swimming in the tank, it clearly still has oxygen in it so unless you are severly disturbing your substrate sufficiently to suck all the oxygen out of the water with this gas, there is no issue If you are disturbing the substrate, run an airstone in the tank and do short bursts are a time (Trust me, due to the smell you won't want to do long bursts ) and you won't have any issues...

Filters should generate nitrate, as they are airobic and should be full of c#!? if well cared for. This c#!? will break down into nitrate via ammonia and nitrite, so more filters should theoretically equal more nitrate, as less c#!?is removed as you do less maintanance on the filters as they share the load between them. This isn't always the case IME, but the filter should deffinately not consume nitrate, as the filter isn't anairobic, rather it is airobic (high-oxygen) thus anairobic bacteria cannot form to break it down in theory That is the way filters in freshwater are designed

All the best
Rabbut

 

[lana]

630 pm readings 12 hours afer adding ammonia to 4ppm

ammonia 0.25 to 0.50
nitrites 2 ish
nitrates yellowy gold again
ph 7.4
kh 3 drops

everything pretty much the same

OK, I've just spent some time rolling through these 14(!) pages of stuff and I have two things, an observation and a thought:

1) My observation is that although you are only on day 12 of your fishless cycle, we've always had the hope that it would be closer to the end of cycling because it was a follow-on to a fish-in cycle that should have been maturing the media in the older of the 3 filters. Reviewing your statistics posts, I believe there is reason the believe that is indeed happening. After you switched over to fishless (and added the two new filters) you still had a period of quite a few tests where nitrites were clearly spiking and ammonia was clearly dropping, all second phase characteristics. Looking since then it seems quite clear to me that you seem beyond the nitrite spike and both ammonia and nitrite are being dropped, with nitrite taking longer to drop than ammonia. It just seems really clear that you are for sure in that last bit where dropping nitrites to zero within 12 hours just seems to drag out for days and days, maybe weeks. Its a very good sign that you seem to be beyond the nitrite spike, I'm really hopeful about this. Its been very complicated with the fish-in and with the new filters and all but I still think its on track.

2) My thought: For a period of time in your posts you were getting fairly high nitrate(NO3) readings and then nitrates seemed to get a little strange on you and have seemed perhaps like the test result had a strange color. When I re-read your posts I realized that this seemed to correlate with the introduction of the two new filters. Somehow to me this sort of makes sense in that I keep having this funny feeling about nitrates(NO3) seeming somehow to "hang around" in gravel and inside filters. I mean it shouldn't make sense since its a substance dissolved in water that is being pumped all around, so maybe other members will take exception to this idea (?) but I noticed that it was after the two new filters had had a couple of days to kind of get their biofilms started.. I'm just speculating but maybe the creation of new biofilms in the new filters might have actually used up some free-floating nitrate and that's why you began seeing lower values for that. Also, perhaps you are just being "picky" about the color of your test result not seeming to match any of the color bars on your chart card. I've noticed that myself and felt you just have to guess a bit where an unmatching color might fit in. I think it may be hard to get inks on the cards that perfectly match or that always last over time retaining the same color and I've noticed it particularly sometimes with the api nitrate colors.

~~waterdrop~~

ya from what i have read looks on track to me but i am new what do i know lol

as far as nitrates go it ti not yellow not the 5 color and not orange looks gold to us here ,
everything else looks good, wonder if i made a boo boo adding the 2 new filters ? hmmmmmm

 

[lana]

HUM, Waterdrop asked me to drop in and look at his nitrate "hanging arround" theory in another thread... Wansn't quite what I was expecting...

Substarte can consume nitrate, as is well documented in the marine hobby and hence why DSB filters work, but power filters should increase it...

The substrate will consume nitrate, as it doen't usualy have good flow through it unless you are using an Under Gravel Filter (UGF) and hence anairobic (low oxygen) pockets form. In these pockets, anairobic bacteria form, that convert any avaiable nitrate to nitrogen gas and oxygen for energy This can happen in freshwater, but for some reason, members on here seem reather paranoid about it happening, stating that if it does the tank will crash. Not so IME I accutually alow it to go on undisterbed in tanks that have sand substrates, as dirt cannot accumulate in it and drag my pH down, but gravel should be cleaned, as the build up of rotting rubbish will have the effects that members here state crash the tank occur on it...

Anairobic bacteria give off hydrogen sufide as a by-product. This gas is highly toxic, but lukily very unstable. As soon as it comes into contact with oxygen, it oxidises into a harmless form (the chemical name I cannot remember now) If your fish are swimming in the tank, it clearly still has oxygen in it so unless you are severly disturbing your substrate sufficiently to suck all the oxygen out of the water with this gas, there is no issue If you are disturbing the substrate, run an airstone in the tank and do short bursts are a time (Trust me, due to the smell you won't want to do long bursts ) and you won't have any issues...

Filters should generate nitrate, as they are airobic and should be full of c#!? if well cared for. This c#!? will break down into nitrate via ammonia and nitrite, so more filters should theoretically equal more nitrate, as less c#!?is removed as you do less maintanance on the filters as they share the load between them. This isn't always the case IME, but the filter should deffinately not consume nitrate, as the filter isn't anairobic, rather it is airobic (high-oxygen) thus anairobic bacteria cannot form to break it down in theory That is the way filters in freshwater are designed

All the best
Rabbut

thanks for stopping by Rabbut

i have read and reread your post and i am still lost, but what i think i am getting is nitrates will not hang out in the filter, and they could be hiding out in the rocks ? i do have a good air stone lots of oxygen being pumped in tank, filter has good flow to it ,

i will just wait and see what happens in the next week or so

 

[waterdrop]

HUM, Waterdrop asked me to drop in and look at his nitrate "hanging arround" theory in another thread... Wansn't quite what I was expecting...

Substarte can consume nitrate, as is well documented in the marine hobby and hence why DSB filters work, but power filters should increase it...

The substrate will consume nitrate, as it doen't usualy have good flow through it unless you are using an Under Gravel Filter (UGF) and hence anairobic (low oxygen) pockets form. In these pockets, anairobic bacteria form, that convert any avaiable nitrate to nitrogen gas and oxygen for energy This can happen in freshwater, but for some reason, members on here seem reather paranoid about it happening, stating that if it does the tank will crash. Not so IME I accutually alow it to go on undisterbed in tanks that have sand substrates, as dirt cannot accumulate in it and drag my pH down, but gravel should be cleaned, as the build up of rotting rubbish will have the effects that members here state crash the tank occur on it...

Anairobic bacteria give off hydrogen sufide as a by-product. This gas is highly toxic, but lukily very unstable. As soon as it comes into contact with oxygen, it oxidises into a harmless form (the chemical name I cannot remember now) If your fish are swimming in the tank, it clearly still has oxygen in it so unless you are severly disturbing your substrate sufficiently to suck all the oxygen out of the water with this gas, there is no issue If you are disturbing the substrate, run an airstone in the tank and do short bursts are a time (Trust me, due to the smell you won't want to do long bursts ) and you won't have any issues...

Filters should generate nitrate, as they are airobic and should be full of c#!? if well cared for. This c#!? will break down into nitrate via ammonia and nitrite, so more filters should theoretically equal more nitrate, as less c#!?is removed as you do less maintanance on the filters as they share the load between them. This isn't always the case IME, but the filter should deffinately not consume nitrate, as the filter isn't anairobic, rather it is airobic (high-oxygen) thus anairobic bacteria cannot form to break it down in theory That is the way filters in freshwater are designed

All the best
Rabbut

Yes, thank you for coming over and taking a look at it rabbut. I didn't mean to trigger the topic of anaerobic pockets. I probably just shouldn't have made such a speculation on such a vague thing without any evidence to back me up or explain it. I was just trying to reconcile the seeming observation that often when you do a large water change, even a 90% one, the nitrates will hardly seem to drop at all. This has happened to me and I've seen it written up by a fair number of beginners too. If you keep doing multiple large water changes, the nitrate will eventually clear out but I was trying to come up with some explanation in my mind. I admit the idea of it "hanging out" in filters is rediculous and I should probably just drop that one. Perhaps the idea that a disproportionate amount of it might somehow hold out in the gravel despite a water change that includes a gravel clean may somehow still hold some merit, but I guess I'll just have to drop my ideas until someday when some aspect makes more sense.

Lana, you can actually ignore all this. It was just some idle speculation on my part and I asked rabbut come come over here and read it but I don't think there's anything of use in it. Sorry to hijack space in your thread!

~~waterdrop~~

 

[lana]

HUM, Waterdrop asked me to drop in and look at his nitrate "hanging arround" theory in another thread... Wansn't quite what I was expecting...

Substarte can consume nitrate, as is well documented in the marine hobby and hence why DSB filters work, but power filters should increase it...

The substrate will consume nitrate, as it doen't usualy have good flow through it unless you are using an Under Gravel Filter (UGF) and hence anairobic (low oxygen) pockets form. In these pockets, anairobic bacteria form, that convert any avaiable nitrate to nitrogen gas and oxygen for energy This can happen in freshwater, but for some reason, members on here seem reather paranoid about it happening, stating that if it does the tank will crash. Not so IME I accutually alow it to go on undisterbed in tanks that have sand substrates, as dirt cannot accumulate in it and drag my pH down, but gravel should be cleaned, as the build up of rotting rubbish will have the effects that members here state crash the tank occur on it...

Anairobic bacteria give off hydrogen sufide as a by-product. This gas is highly toxic, but lukily very unstable. As soon as it comes into contact with oxygen, it oxidises into a harmless form (the chemical name I cannot remember now) If your fish are swimming in the tank, it clearly still has oxygen in it so unless you are severly disturbing your substrate sufficiently to suck all the oxygen out of the water with this gas, there is no issue If you are disturbing the substrate, run an airstone in the tank and do short bursts are a time (Trust me, due to the smell you won't want to do long bursts ) and you won't have any issues...

Filters should generate nitrate, as they are airobic and should be full of c#!? if well cared for. This c#!? will break down into nitrate via ammonia and nitrite, so more filters should theoretically equal more nitrate, as less c#!?is removed as you do less maintanance on the filters as they share the load between them. This isn't always the case IME, but the filter should deffinately not consume nitrate, as the filter isn't anairobic, rather it is airobic (high-oxygen) thus anairobic bacteria cannot form to break it down in theory That is the way filters in freshwater are designed

All the best
Rabbut

Yes, thank you for coming over and taking a look at it rabbut. I didn't mean to trigger the topic of anaerobic pockets. I probably just shouldn't have made such a speculation on such a vague thing without any evidence to back me up or explain it. I was just trying to reconcile the seeming observation that often when you do a large water change, even a 90% one, the nitrates will hardly seem to drop at all. This has happened to me and I've seen it written up by a fair number of beginners too. If you keep doing multiple large water changes, the nitrate will eventually clear out but I was trying to come up with some explanation in my mind. I admit the idea of it "hanging out" in filters is rediculous and I should probably just drop that one. Perhaps the idea that a disproportionate amount of it might somehow hold out in the gravel despite a water change that includes a gravel clean may somehow still hold some merit, but I guess I'll just have to drop my ideas until someday when some aspect makes more sense.

Lana, you can actually ignore all this. It was just some idle speculation on my part and I asked rabbut come come over here and read it but I don't think there's anything of use in it. Sorry to hijack space in your thread!

~~waterdrop~~

lol no problem it's all good i did learn something i didn't know

 

[rabbut]

^^ should note that that is just theory. As they say, your mileage may vary

Three filters IME are fine, and is an example of where practice does the opposit of what theory surgests. Nitrate sems to run lower on "overfiltered" tanks in practice, which is strange as it shouldn't Also, in theory, once the substrate has reduced nitrate to gas, it shouldn't come back, which is again interesting, as some see it as apparently doing so. I suspect part of this may be down to nitrate test kit accuracy. This leads me to something more relivant you you now, and that may explain your observations...

Most nitrate test kits work by converting nitrate back to nitrite and then meassuring the nitrite in the water sample. When you have nitrite in the sample to start with, it voids the reading of you nitrate test. For every 1 ppm of nitrite in the sample for most tests, the actual nitrate reading from the nitrate test will show an additional 3.6 (or was it 3.7?) ppm of nitrate presant, so high nitrite readings in a fishless cycle usualy lead to high nitrate readings, and as such, you can use your nitrate kit to measure nitrite readings once they are off the chart. Mebe this explians yours and others "nitrate hanging arround after waterchange" observations in fishless cycles Waterdrop?

All the best
Rabbut

 

[lana]

day 13 fishless day 51 all together

630 am readings 24 hours after 12ml ammonia added to 3ppm to 4 ppm

ammonia 0
nitrites 2 to 5
nitrates 5 wooohoooo a clear reading today
ph 7.2
kh 3 drops

temp 30C

730 reading of ammoin

3 to 4 ppm

 

[rabbut]

Looking good Is that ammonia dropping in 12 hours yet?

All the best
Rabbut

 

[lana]

Looking good Is that ammonia dropping in 12 hours yet?

All the best
Rabbut

nope at 12 hour point it is 0.25 to 0.50 still

when i am home i test mid afternoon and is it Zero so it looks like it is at right now the 15 16 hours point

 

[waterdrop]

Still, pretty good, for being technically at the 13 day point.

~~waterdrop~~

 

[lana]

Still, pretty good, for being technically at the 13 day point.

~~waterdrop~~

yup yup

ok off to make my hubby his carrot cake

right now only one pc in house the laptop damn power supply went on main pc guy coming tonight to install it and hubby works from home so he is taking over my laptop

post again at 5 when he is done

 

[waterdrop]

I counted 7 laptops last night just between the kitchen and dining room, kids leave the d**M things all over the floor, sheesh!

 

[lana]

630 pm readings 12 hours after 12ml ammonia added to 3ppm to 4 ppm

ammonia ZERO ZERO ZERO
nitrites 2 to 5
nitrates 5
ph 7.2
kh 3 drops

temp 30C

wooohoooo ammonia zero at 12 hour mark , what does that mean i just know i wanted to see it

 

[lana]

day 14 fishless day 52 all together

7:30 am readings 24 hours after 12ml ammonia added to 3ppm to 4 ppm

ammonia 0
nitrites 2ish
nitrates 10
ph 7.4
kh 3 drops
temp 30C

added 12 ml ammonia

 

[rabbut]

It means your ammonia eating bacteria are finaly established in sufficient numbers, and now you are just waiting for the Nitrite eating ones They usualy take about twice as long as nitrite eating ones, but can be quicker

All the best
Rabbut