Ro Water Or Tap Water

I perhaps should have been more clear in my post. We didn't add pure RO water to the tanks when they were first set up, it came with time. The majority was tap water and then RO water added to that. We couldn't get the water exactly how we wanted it so every water change, we used RO water instead of tap water.
 
The overriding principle here is that everything tends toward equilibrium. I think that that has been agreed upon. However, in terms of what pure RO water has on life, is that pure RO water exposed to anything will not be in equilibrium. That is because, equilibrium allows some portion of solids to be dissolved in water -- this is all solids. Now, it may be an incredibly small amount dissolved, i.e. RO water in glass only has a few molecules of glass in the water at equilibrium. On the other hand, a pinch of salt or sugar dissolves very quickly in a cup of water. But, as most of you know, if you keep adding salt or sugar, eventually the water becomes saturated -- or, in the terminology I am trying to introduce, the salt or sugar solution is at equilibrium with the solid form.

What happens with RO water, when it is exposed to higher life forms' tissues, (i.e. fish or human tissue), is that the pure water is not in equilibrium with the minerals in the tissue. That is, the concentration of a mineral like calcium is not in equilibrium. So, the tissues of the body gives up calcium so that equilibrium is reached. I chose calcium for my example, as I think it is the most critical example of a mineral you or your fish do not want to lose. Everyone knows how important calcium is bones, but calcium is also critical for cell membranes. Without enough calcium, the cell membranes don't work right -- that is cells cannot receive the nutrients they need, not expel the waste they need to get rid of.

Normal water coming from a well, or from a stream, has leached an incredible about of calcium from the ground. As fishkeepers, we call this hardness. In most normal situations, the body is actually able to use a lot of this calcium from the water -- the gradient is favorable for calcium to leave the water and be put to use by the body. But, in RO water, since there is no minerals, this flow is reversed. The body is forced to give up calcium and loses the vital minerals it needs for survival. This is why re-mineralization of RO water is critical.

A secondary issue is how the fish does perform it's osmoregulatory processes. Salts are critical, since the fish performs a lot of ion-exchange at its gills. For example, in order to excrete ammonia, the fish usually excretes it as NH4+. In order to keep the charge balance, the fish takes back in another positive ion, normally Na+ is available in excess. Well, without any salts in the RO water, the fish is unable to exchange those ions. The result, the ammonia stays in the fish's body a lot longer than it normally would, the fish actually will begin to slow its metabolism down so that is doesn't produce as much ammonia waste and poison itself. Unless you are plan on inventing and using some sort of fish dialysis machine, using pure RO water and not allowing the fish to excrete its waste normally is going to cause long-term problems for the fish.

These are not immediate consequences. But, it is a long-term stress that is being forced on the fish's body. In an emergency, if you had to keep your fish in pure RO water, it would probably be fine for days, maybe even weeks, but it is not a good long-term solution.

Tap water does have a bunch of undesirable things is it, but tap water also has many good things. Not just calcium from my above example, but magnesium, manganese, etc. And don't forget the trace minerals, zinc, some iron, etc. The body doesn't need a lot of them, but so long as the concentration in the water was favorable, the body can use them when it needs it.

In summary, pure RO water is a very, very unnatural situation for a fish to be in, and pure RO water does not allow its body to perform its functions as designed. In analogy, consider being forced to live your entire life by breathing through a straw and the air is just a little low in oxygen. You can live for some time, but your body would much rather be able to take in large breaths with the right % of oxygen. So, remineralize that water -- a lot of people just mix in a percentage of tap water and that works pretty well. It isn't that hard or expensive, and your fish will live long and healthy lives with the remineralized waters.
 
thanks for everyones advice

my lfs uses RO water in all of his tanks marine and tropical, i think even the goldfishes
so i got all my advice from RO water supporters / fans
i have learned to do all my own reserch now, but as my fish have seemed happy in the RO water ive never looked into it.

This is interesting. Does he add buffering for the livebearers?
 
Regardless of the science though, I've seen countless times more experienced fishkeepers than myself saying that plain RO is very dangerous to use for fish, and that additives should be used.

The experience of that alone is enough for me.

could not have said it better myself!!!
While part of me agrees with this, part of me is wary.

Without the science to back it up and just going on experts you can end up in interesting places. 20 or so years ago, many experts would tell you that aquarium salt and old water was the way to a good tank, just make sure you have an under gravel filter.

:nod:

very true, my dad kept loads of fish as a young man and helped me set up my first tank, told me how to cycle it with platy's, not to do too many water changes etc, although he wanted to see one of those new fangled internal filters so we got one of those! Had I done my own research and not just gone with what 'the expert' said I would have not killed a fair few platys and cories in that tank.

spud13, I'm glad you have at least learnt something from all this and will try and do your own research from now on. If you don't know who to believe still why not print off this topic and take it to your experts to discuss :good:

Thanks for that info bignose, very interesting as always :good:
 
I'm not questioning your statements above but I have always been under the impression that RO water is best for the fish as all the harmful stuff has been removed - I dont have an RO unit and have never bothered but know lots of people who do and they have never done what your suggesting above - In fact I just asked one of them and he said your comments are rather alarmist and over the top. Now i dont know but thats the understanding I had so I wondered if you could just clarify it - Should pure RO water (from an RO unit) not be put straight in a tank without being mixed with either chemicals or untreated water

I think Bignose's excellent description explains perfectly why R/O water needs re mineralising before use in much better terms than i could have ever used

you are absolutely right on this though, this is a place for debate and discussion. Boboboy, CFC should defend his own comments scientifically, yes he is experienced and knows a great deal but that does not mean he is not infallible or automatically correct, none of us are.

I think that has been done

Also if you can't afford a RO unit, you can purchase 3 gallon jugs of spring water. You can purchase large amounds for very cheap. Thats what I did with all my tanks. I still treat the water with conditioners just because of peace of mind. Spring water is basically RO water with minerals there to replenish it.

Actually spring water is not just R/O water with the minerals in, spring water is what it says, water taken from a natural spring. Depemding on the source location spring water varies greatly in the trace elements and minerals it has in it and some can be very hard and alkeline which would be disasterous for someone keeping softwater fish

I perhaps should have been more clear in my post. We didn't add pure RO water to the tanks when they were first set up, it came with time. The majority was tap water and then RO water added to that. We couldn't get the water exactly how we wanted it so every water change, we used RO water instead of tap water.

Thats fine but eventually the buffers and trace elements from the original tapwater will run out unless you are adding them back in some form or another, when they do the pH could crash litterally over night and long before that there will be strain being placed on the fish which may have long term effects. Check out the KENT marine range of additives for tailoring R/O water to your needs, they have a fantastic range of products, though their website is a mess and hard to navigate (i think) http://www.kentmarine.com/
 
Thanks again CFC.
That certainly was an interesting read. We don't mix tap water in with the RO water as the nitrates are pretty high from the tap. I'm still a little confused though. :crazy:
If we were to add the additives to the RO water, will that be sufficient enough to keep our fish healthy? Also, are we perhaps best mixing in a little tap water when we do a water change?
 
Thanks again CFC.
That certainly was an interesting read. We don't mix tap water in with the RO water as the nitrates are pretty high from the tap. I'm still a little confused though. :crazy:
If we were to add the additives to the RO water, will that be sufficient enough to keep our fish healthy? Also, are we perhaps best mixing in a little tap water when we do a water change?

how high is high for you tap water nitrates? bear in mind they'd be diluted, if you added 10% tap water which had a reading of 100ppm to 90% RO with a nitrate reading of 0ppm you'd only have 10ppm in the end which isn't awful at all.

personally i would remineralize the water rather than adding tap water, if you're going to all the fuss of running off RO it's easy enough to get soem minerals too, if you start mixing in tap water you need to dechlorinate as well so you either have to start buying minerals or dechlor. Not much in it i suspect!
 
If you use the additives then there is no need to use tapwater at all, this is the route i would follow as well since as you say the tapwater contains nitrates which especially in your case is undesireable.

For basic no thrills water just use the KENT R/O right and KENT pH stable which will add the minerals back for the GH and KH, the instructions are easy to follow and the products are easy to use. If you want to get creative then they have loads of additives to turn your R/O water into water that could have been piped straight from the Amazon itself, check out the range of trace elements and vitamin supplements.

I would also recomend buying a TDS (total dissolved solids) meter to measure the mineral content of your water if you are using R/O as your staple water source so you can get an accurate reading of the mineral content of the water.
 
Thanks Alice and CFC, this all really helps.
Obviously, I want to make sure that I get things right and none of this has been explained to us.
Our tap water has nitrates of about 60-70, which I know isn't incredibly high, but we like to keep it lower.
I know additives are added for us when we get the water from the lfs and they have been ever since we started using it.
I will keep an eye out for a TDS meter, chances are we'll pop to the lfs tomorrow. I'll also be checking out the KENT range!
 
well thats explained it all to me and thats all i was asking for yesterday - a full explanation of why RO water isnt all its cracked up to be.
I've taken advice from Discus owners who swear by RO water only.

I have no intention of using RO water - 1) the units are expensive and 2) the amount of waste from them is way to high for me to use responsibly (cant complain about Water companies wasting water and my money if I am)

Thanks for the detailed info
 
Thanks Alice and CFC, this all really helps.
Obviously, I want to make sure that I get things right and none of this has been explained to us.
Our tap water has nitrates of about 60-70, which I know isn't incredibly high, but we like to keep it lower.
I know additives are added for us when we get the water from the lfs and they have been ever since we started using it.
I will keep an eye out for a TDS meter, chances are we'll pop to the lfs tomorrow. I'll also be checking out the KENT range!


Ah ha, that explains it a bit more. If you are buying the R/O water at the lfs and they have been adding the minerals to the water for you then you dont need to add anything further, though i would personally preffer to just buy the water neat and add my own minerals so i knew what and how much is going in for peace of mind and safety, £800 worth of plecs is a lot of fish to trust to someone else adding the right ammounts.
 
Thanks Alice and CFC, this all really helps.
Obviously, I want to make sure that I get things right and none of this has been explained to us.
Our tap water has nitrates of about 60-70, which I know isn't incredibly high, but we like to keep it lower.
I know additives are added for us when we get the water from the lfs and they have been ever since we started using it.
I will keep an eye out for a TDS meter, chances are we'll pop to the lfs tomorrow. I'll also be checking out the KENT range!


Ah ha, that explains it a bit more. If you are buying the R/O water at the lfs and they have been adding the minerals to the water for you then you dont need to add anything further, though i would personally preffer to just buy the water neat and add my own minerals so i knew what and how much is going in for peace of mind and safety, £800 worth of plecs is a lot of fish to trust to someone else adding the right ammounts.
You're not wrong there! We've also got another Pleco tank and although they are not as expensive, we'd be devastated if we lost any.
I'm going to find out exactly what minerals they add to the water when I pop in tomorrow. ;)
 
£800 worth of plecs - I hope you dont mind me saying but "bloody hell" thats a hell of a lot of expensive plecs

As I have no idea what your tank setup is please humour me by telling me cos I cant imagine £800 worth of Plecs
 
also i'd look into getting your own RO unit, check out www.osmotics.co.uk (TFF 10% discount) I worked out the prices for our own unit and for buying it from the lfs and the basic 3 stage unit paid for itself in 5 months for water changes on a 30 gallon tank. might save you a bit of money doing it yourself :good:
 
£800 worth of plecs - I hope you dont mind me saying but "bloody hell" thats a hell of a lot of expensive plecs

As I have no idea what your tank setup is please humour me by telling me cos I cant imagine £800 worth of Plecs
We've just brought 4 Zebra Plecos that cost us £720 for all 4. They are quite rare and very difficult to get hold of. We are hoping to breed them but might be in for a bit of a wait!
We also have a 137G tank with 11 Plecos and various other fish. Nowhere near as expensive as the Zebras but still cost us an average of £30 each.
A few other tanks but the fish were a lot cheaper!
 

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